Flyback said:
alec_t said:
When installed would the twisted pair cable be fire-protected by conduit? How would it be supported? Would it just be draped across a ceiling or floor?
..it can be either, conduit or draped over surface.
I am thoroughly convinced that if one brings the TP cable near any reasonably sized conductor you will get mass energy losses from induced eddy currents, and there is just about nothing the OP can say that would convince me otherwise at this point.
Flyback said:
I have held a powered 50KHz [trademark removed] near relays and near all kinds of circuitry, and it certainly doesn't make the relays switch or affect the circuits in any way. The test load that I heard they used actually incorporated relays to selectively short out load resistors.....these relays were right alongside the [trademark removed] and weren't switched by the 50kHZ EM field.
VERY interesting claims.... considering I can't even have a shielded USB cables close to any PC speakers without getting mass buz. And USB TP cables are carrying 1/100000 the energy and are operating at frequencies much farther from audio spectrum that the system in question.
Sounds like even more BS if you ask me.
Flyback said:
switch MODE power supplies have high frequency switching currents in them but I don't notice great damage caused by them to adjacent electrical circuitry or relays.
ive just held my plastic enclosed laptop smps next to my digital radio, and it still sounds fine.
I am quite familiar with what goes on in such things and I can tell you there is a humongous difference between a conventional offline SMPS and high energy AC running through several meters of TP wire.
The amount of conductor in an SMPS with high frequency and high energy going through it is deliberately short, fat, and shielded, to prevent the exact problems we are bringing up here with your system. You will also note that most SMPS's also have counter wound inductors near the mains side specifically to prevent the switching noise from escaping to the long runs of mains cable for pretty much the exact same reason.
The parallel you draw between SMPS's and your system is apples and oranges honestly. SMPS's do everything possible to not radiate power, your system does not.
Flyback said:
The near field for 50KHz is quite far, so youre not really going to be coupling much out to surrounding metal structures etc.
This may be a loss in translation, but the near field being farther/larger would make the problem worse, not better. One needs to be inside the near field to be able to couple to it, and the larger it is the easier this would be.
In any case, I must remind you of my previous argument to any point concerning coupling, "you can't have your cake and also have eaten it."
Either...
(1) The TP cable EASILY couples it's energy, and you get problems with things potentially stealing power.
**OR**
(2) The TP cable POORLY couples it's energy, and you get poor energy transfer where you want it.
Any middle ground will certainly mean low efficiency.
The only reason a conventional transformer does not lose (much) power when large conductors are brought near it, is because most of the magnetic field is compacted and contained in the core material. But your system deliberately spreads out the transformer and removes the field containment. This brings the problem back in force.
Flyback said:
Microwave ovens couple much energy into food, but they operate at ~2GHz ...that's an awful lot more than 50KHz.
Microwave ovens are shielded waveguide like boxes, the frequency is chosen to operate in a particular safe area of the spectrum, and they still can cause plenty of interference for electronic devices. The frequency is also chosen specifically because it's the frequency water absorbs the best. Finally, most thin pieces of metal will basically explode with a shower of sparks if you put them in a microwave oven, because they absorb the energies better than the intended target does.
Now... what was your point again?
Flyback said:
Supposing I have a 20 foot length of [Trademark removed], and I run it along a metal surface inside a metal conduit , how much energy do you calculate is coupling out to the metal conduit in total?
Five...
Flyback said:
Myself said:
In the eyes of the employers and their insurers electricity is electricity at any voltage and will require a certified tech.
..There is something called "SELV" and for this , certified techs aren't needed.
I can go to [branding removed] and buy a PSU which gives 50V output...
**broken link removed**
..or even 120V output..
**broken link removed**
........and nobody will ask if I am qualified.
.......snip.......
A great many of the posts are stating that somehow [branding removed]'s system wouldnt be able to pass various laws and regulations.
.......snip.......
And at the end of the day, I can go into the local supermarket, buy a mains plug, open it up and bring some bare wires out of it......and kill myself if I want......where's the laws stopping me buying that plug?
.......snip.......
why are cars that travel at 140mph allowed to be sold...etc etc.
The "laws and regs" argument against [branding removed] just doesn't hold up.
You are completely missing (or intentionally avoiding) the point...
(1)There are "
laws/regulations", i.e. rules chosen by the masses/governing bodies that all members of a society are expected to follow.
(2)Then there are "
policies", i.e. rules chosen by employers and their insurers made to govern what employees are allowed to do.
The first rule set is to prevent individuals or groups in a society from doing things that benefit or engage them at the expense of others. i.e. murder, rape, theft, scams, drugs and so on down the line. These things will apply to individuals as well as companies... (except apparently in America, where the rich are excused from this.)
The second rule set is to define a clear sphere for what an employee's tasks might reasonably be, to cover the monetary interests of the employing body. i.e. a baker may be allowed (and in fact encouraged) to sweep the floors once in awhile when the janitor is busy, but may not be allowed to scrub toilets due to the potential health risk.
We are clearly talking about the second rule set in this discussion.
The law will say nothing about a cashier installing low voltage safety lights on an electric shopping cart, but there is no way he/she is going to be allowed to do this mod to all the carts for their employers grocery store. One would have to be a certified electric cart technition for the manager to be able to OK the task. This is a policy choice.
Similarly, an employer may buy your system, install it, then decide that they want it changed. Well... if that change involves the cutting and bonding of electrical wires, the companys policy will likely forbid anyone but a certified electrical technition from doing the work. Making all your claims that it is safe for the common man to work on entirely irrelevant even if the work is actually trivial.
Flyback said:
blueroomelectronics said:
Got a price list yet? How much are those "customers" paying for the hardware?
...Theirs no special or expensive components , so it'll be a nice price.
The I*****a system saves you money by allowing you to use much lower luminaire count, and also saves you money on electrician bills.
I'm with blueroomelectronics (and probably everyone else) on this.
You can use any positive adjectives you want to try and dress up and sell this system, but without quantifiable measures and hard data, it is next to impossible to take you even remotely seriously. This is at least 60% of the reason you are digging your grave with everyone here I think. Come at us with spectrums of test cases, controlled experiments, and verifiable data, let us have access to some evaluation units, and show us some documentation. Then you might maybe be able to turn this around. But so far you have given us no reason to believe you and all the reason to doubt you.
Talk is cheap, proof is paramount.
Flyback said:
Myself said:
Arranging any space (the act itself) will require full room lighting. It would be awkward and potentially dangerous to do so with lighting that only lit select parts of the room, even if they were relocatable. On top of that, lighting the entire space automatically allows any configuration possible by it's very nature without needing to plan it out.
HFAC lighting doesn't just light up one part of the room, it lights up whichever part you want...........as much as you want, or as little as you want. Lighting the entire space is fine if you are not paying the lighting bill.
You can do this with conventional lighting just the same. It's called "turning off lights that are not in use." If the lights are hanging from the ceiling by cordage, have plenty of slack, and can be controlled in groups at least, then there is no reason whatsoever to use your system.
Flyback said:
Myself said:
Finally, the person/people that have to come up with an efficient custom lighting configuration are going to charge money just the same as any electrician does.
..the people that brought [branding deleted] forward, are those people who have been appalled at paying high electrican bills. And who don't see why they should pay to light up things that don't need lighting up.
...Alleged by you, and missing my point.
In reality, the people that do this work should know that a system requires the bottlenecks to be removed for the system as a whole to be optimised. And from what I know, how the lights are connected to the power is generally not the limiting factor. Just the planning and coordination of individual lighting could easily outweigh the cost of the small amount of power lost with full room lighting by a highly efficient conventional source.