Electric Cars vs.Gas Guzzlers

[Space Varmint]

But I still want wipers to keep the rain and snow off my windshield, a heater to keep my toes toasty, and I want to light the occasional cigarette while listening to my stereo tunes! Oh, and I'll need lights to see and signal my intentions, too.

OK let see...

1. A hand crank on the dash board labeled "wipers"

2. An extra pair of socks.

3. Walkman

4. LEDs

I mentioned Solar Paint earlier (Nano-Solar). It also works off heat.

 

[Oznog]

EV conversions are a neat and a hardware hacker's dream, or perhaps nemesis.

http://www.nedra.com/pg_white_zombie.html is the amateur record holder for an EV conversion factory vehicle, a 1972 Datsun 1200. While racing fuel dragsters can beat 11.446 @ 114.08 mph, a gasoline 1972 Datsun [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]1200 sedan typically does not!

**broken link removed** shows a lot of what's possible.

They can be fast accelerators, but typically have a low top speed. They have outrageous low-end torque whereas gas engines have low output at low rpms.

A 100mph range would be really really high without a custom-designed ultralight, low-drag body. 40-50mile range is more realistic for a common sedan and there's some caveats to that. One being that running your batts down all the way will shorten their lives, so don't plan on putting it into service for a 40 mile commute. Cold temps lower the capacity, as does age.

Only a few battery types actually work "well" in an EV at all.

Unfortunately the price of lead, as well as nickel for NiMH batts, has skyrocketed in recent years alongside gas prices. Batts are much more expensive.

The batts do have a finite life as well, very short if abused, but lead-acid is only capable of a few hundred cycles even when treated ideally. It's difficult to compare cost-effectiveness here without knowledge of the actual cycle life expectancy. Mfg figures are typically rather "optimistic". But, well, 300 cycles (that might be very optimistic for EV duty) and it's equivalent to say 1.5 gal of fuel per charge @ $3.75/gal = $1687 in gas. Unfortunately batts can run much more than that, but the cost of electricity isn't that much. Motor, controller, modifications can be many thousands of dollars. Don't do it for the money. It makes... well, some sort of statement, and it's just plain cool to have a car running on batts.

Solar panels are typically a bust. A "normal" vehicle run as an EV needs about 300 watt-hours/mi to drive around if well designed. So 50W of solar panels- which is a lot- could regenerate about a mile of range during the workday if left in the parking out without any shade, in lower latitudes, during the summer-ish part of the year. Unless it's a wild conformal panel design, the extra drag of a panel will cost far more than 1 mile of range.

Electricity is cheap. At 10 cents/kwh that's a bit over 3 cents/mi which is like having $1/gal gas again. Getting 28 mpg at $3.75/gal is 13.3 cents/mi.

 

[Space Varmint]

Maybe not quite there yet but check out
The National Electric Drag Racing Association
Drag Bike Burn out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl_nikPj-n0

That is a neat site!!

 

[Oznog]

The motors are often converted electric forklift motors, run way over their intended voltage. Seems to work ok nonetheless. The peak hp can be tremendous. If your batteries and controller can deliver the electricity, it will easily twist the axles off a stock rear end (literally, it will break them). Even though the motor is not thermally capable of continuous output of that magnitude, that won't be a problem because acceleration is a transient thing anyways.

https://www.go-ev.com/motors-warp.html is a page that sells well engineered EV motors, popular among those serious about it.

Lithium batts can get substantially better range than lead-acid, and in theory they can last quite a bit longer (but again, the life will be finite). The cost is not only high, it's difficult to find anyone willing to sell large-format lithium. The limited production capacity is going towards expensive industrial prototypes, why take a break from a multimillion-dollar contract with plans to eventually be Tesla Motors' full-production supplier to divert effort towards someone with $10k to spend? They're also uncomfortably likely to catch fire in amateur hands and that's bad for the brand name. Charging them is a really specific science.

Will lithium ever be "cheap" and safe? Well, hard to say. We hope so.

 

[Oznog]

Also the top speed is typically not a motor issue, but rather the battery's energy delivery capability. A lead-acid batt (or any batt, including lithium) has a finite sustainable power output and sustaining highway speeds can run well over 100A on a 120V string. This causes battery terminal voltage to drop which reduces the power produced, and your batt life can be severely shortened. Reducing the problem by adding more batts in parallel and/or using larger batts is a nice idea but this is based on the assumption that the car's already stuffed with batts.

So, the batt's a strong limiting factor there. Just because it says 50AH on the label doesn't mean we can draw 150A for 1/3rd an hour. Doesn't work that way. Actually there's also something called the Peukert Equation which predicts the usable capacity at different current rates which is something to take a look at. Peukert's is a different thing than the peak current you can safely draw from a batt though.

That's why we look at two factors: the batt's specific energy capacity and specific power capacity.

 

[arrie]

Oznog, seems you have done a bit of research on EV and powering them.
I agree, the allure of EV are the almost instant oodles of torque. Good for acceleration times.
But still powering those lovely electric engines is the head-ache.
Batteries alone will not suffice.
Maybe some hybrid system. If you can produce a solar panel body cost effectively, you'll use one, but for at most a couple hundred Watts, I doubt it.
I like RadioRons idea of the spinners on the roof for extra power, but doubt image concious arrses will buy your car.
Maybe some wheel and pully system to run of the surface underneath the car to also push a genny.
Some fuel cells with a decent sized methanol fuel tank to help add to the range issue, who knows.
You might just have a hybrid system that'll put some big ears on old ICE.

But I think for now, you'll be the laughing stock of the town.
Worth a try though.

 

[AllVol]

OK let see...

1. A hand crank on the dash board labeled "wipers"

2. An extra pair of socks.

3. Walkman

4. LEDs

I mentioned Solar Paint earlier (Nano-Solar). It also works off heat.

Can you say "Stone Age". LOL

 

[3v0]

I like electric over diesel.

Use a small engine tuned to gave maximum efficiency at a fixed RPM. Make the engine large enough to power the car under non demanding conditions, use the bats to supply the additional power needed for acceleration. Add regenerative braking.

This is a normal hybrid except for the diesel engine which runs at a higher compression and is about 25% more efficient than gas/petro.

The railroad people knew what they were doing.

EDIT: But I like this one
**broken link removed**
Army’s Diesel-Electric ‘Aggressor’ Vehicle Could Be Iraq’s First Hybrid

 

[jpanhalt]

A CJ2/CJ3 jeep does the same thing and doesn't cost nearly as much.

Looks like a new, very expensive toy for limited missions. Is that a center mounted Gatling gun? What about protection from IED's?

John

 

[3v0]

Is that a center mounted Gatling gun?

I do not supposed they would allow that on a civilian version

 

[3v0]

Aussies Invent UltraBattery, For Ultra Hippies

Link
It is a combo of lead acid with supercaps. A 2nd level energy cache?

A Honda Insight outfitted with an UltraBattery completed a 100,000 mile track test in Britain, running on the battery alone. In addition to the increased lifespan, the batteries reportedly provide 50-percent more power and are 70-percent cheaper than the current nickel metal-hydride batteries used in hybrids and other electric vehicles.

I wonder if this is the same or similar technology the guy in Texas is working on. His battery was said to be super cap related.

It looks like there is enough progress in the works that if all the best is rolled together it could result in an interesting car.

Carbon fiber body (GM ultralite) - about 100 MPG
above + Diesel - 25% increase over gas/petro for 125 MPG
above + Electric over diesel hybrid - Not a clue here because of the additional weight

 

[jpanhalt]

That's fantastic. And on a single charge too

Neither the link nor the link therein says a word about how often the batter was recharged, if any. Love the hype about being rechargeable millions upon millions of times. Let's see, if it were recharged every hour, then one million times is 114 years. Maybe it needs recharging every 10 minutes? That's what you would call stop-and-go traffic.

John

 

[TRexall]

The railroad people knew what they were doing.

That thing looks perfect for small trips to the supermarket

 

[Space Varmint]

That thing looks perfect for small trips to the supermarket

Anybody see that thing on PBS last night where they were at GM in Michigan and they were talking about bringing out a new model, sort of muscle car looking with Lithium Ion batteries? They claim to have done massive research and the power pack has several several playable cells in it.

It was totally aerodynamically designed. They would only show like one corner of the front end and the wheel compartment to demonstrate the wheels were directly flush with the body to reduce friction. They had a canvas over the rest of the car.

From what you could see, it looked rather nice.

 

[mneary]

"Aerodynamic" appearance is just an old Detroit trick to make you think they've done a better overall engineering job. When the customer gets their first test drive, they'll notice inadequate passenger capacity, poor headroom, and tiny luggage compartment. It will stay on the showroom floor forever.

 

[audioguru]

A battery powered car is a golf-cart. Illegal on roads and highways.

 

[mneary]

A golf cart is battery powered. Not quite the same.

 

[TRexall]

Ok....Here's the diagram from an actual conversion that was done for you non-believers out there

 

[audioguru]

24! Big huge heavy lead-acid batteries!
It would move slowly like a snail.

 

[TRexall]

Actually the top speed was 70 mph on that particular truck..I would have chosen different batteries myself..like Gell Cells.
Then added the super-caps later(with the so called buck-boost converter).