Electric Cars vs.Gas Guzzlers

arrie said:

I like RadioRons idea of the spinners on the roof for extra power, but doubt image concious arrses will buy your car.
Maybe some wheel and pully system to run of the surface underneath the car to also push a genny.

Click to expand...

A windmill-powered car is a perpetual motion machine. Well, the first half of what RadioRon said- having a windmill that worked when parked- is possible, even if impractical to carry around a huge windmill.

Any attempt however to charge the batts off the vehicle's forward motion- windmill off the relative airflow- will fail because it's impossible to get free energy this way. The drag created by a windmill or generator on the wheels will require extra power from the batts to maintain speed, more energy than it creates.

The only gain is in using regenerative braking to get some gains off the power used to stop the vehicle.

I guess I wasn't clear. I meant that the windmill would be a regenerative brake as well. When you want to slow down, the blades are adjusted for maximum drag and when you are not wanting to slow down they are adjusted for minimum drag. Pretty much the same as what they do with regenerative brakes right now, only different.

3v0 said:

Link
It is a combo of lead acid with supercaps. A 2nd level energy cache?

Click to expand...

Well I can tell you this, adding a supercap is "nice" but and can improve the life of the battery and its performance due to the reduced peak demands, BUT it's not going to exceed the performance spec of the batt used. That is, you have a batt spec'ed for 300 deep discharge cycles and maybe less at high current.

I'm just saying, if you wanna know "if I add a supercap (ultracap) bank to an EV batt, will it really last 4x longer?" the answer is no. Somewhat longer and will perform better but not THAT much better.

If those guys really got 100,000 miles of a lead-acid pack then they've got an outstanding batt type along with a very low power consumption body, the supercap is just icing on the cake. I mean getting say 100 miles off a pack is still "remarkable". Conventionally the limit of lead-acid has around 300x deep discharge cycles, realistically and there's a lot of reasons they probably won't last that long. And on the batts I looked at, limiting yourself to 1/4 discharges yields more than 4x the discharge cycles, sure, but the miles achievable on that pack's total lifespan only goes up by perhaps 20%, 30% or so. An improvement for sure but they do still wear out.

Well, the supercap can buffer the surge needed for starting from a stop, BUT it won't be able to change the fact that the batt still needs like 100A continuous to cruise at highway speeds and that'll remain one of the factors which affects the batt life. Those supercaps are "big" but we've never seen one which can propel a car more than a fraction of a mile even when you fill up the whole trunk. Has no ability to supplement power in the long term.

The Texas company you refer to is probably EEStor, who wrote up a patent for a whole new level of capacitor with the equivalent shaft energy of a gas engine with a ~5-gal tank. Well, we'd all like to see that but many people have made fantastc claims like this. They've never publicly demo'ed their technology on any scale, their initial promises of what they could do by such-and-such date saw the date come and go. Wikipedia has some interesting refutations on why their claims wouldn't work. Well, you know, we'd all love to see this miracle happen and maybe it can, they're just going to need a bit longer to make up a whole new groundbreaking field of energy storage on their own. The only point here is it's pointless to draw up specs on how great these cars will be when we don't know if it's even possible at all, much less if it will actually be produced or what it will cost and what its weight and volume will be.

RadioRon said:

I guess I wasn't clear. I meant that the windmill would be a regenerative brake as well. When you want to slow down, the blades are adjusted for maximum drag and when you are not wanting to slow down they are adjusted for minimum drag. Pretty much the same as what they do with regenerative brakes right now, only different.

Click to expand...

There is no way "minimum drag" would be anywhere near acceptable. Anything big enough to get substantial power off the wind while parked would completely destroy the aerodynamics of it while driving.

It has no value as regenerative braking since a windmill is absurdly inefficient and ineffective since you already have a motor-generator on the wheel which turns the motor shaft with forward vehicle motion with essentially 100% efficiency. Perfect coupling to the road. A windmill can only slow you down slowly from higher speeds, it's not going to bring you to a stop since the coupling to forward motion weakens to nothing as you slow down.

I understood it differently.
Typically, I took it as similar to these little systems to indicate wind speed.
You'll have quite a few of them mounted on the roof, as the car drives, the wind turns them, turning a small genny, helping to charge the battery.
No perpet thing here
It'll just help, along with all the other systems (forming the complete hybrid), solar, free running wheel/s on the road also powering small gennys, etc. to help put power back into the battery/ies.
And I was also kinda joking, because such a complex system will not be feasible.

Do you understand what I'm saying oznog?

I like those super-duper-ultra batteries more, if they can possibly really exist.

I think the point we'll be making here is the following (opinion):

1. For EV to be feasible, you'll require a large enough body to contain the system, this has it's obvious drawbacks.

2. Best way for powering a EV would be some form of hybrid system.

3. It's best to replace LA batteries with something lighter and with higher power density rating.

4. You probably would have to spend quite some time to recharge the system along the way Real bad.

But, if fuel cells can progress past their love of heavily expensive materials, we could have some joy.
You'll still have a fuel tank, containing extra fuel to supplement the fuel used by the fuel cell. After all, amps in fuel cell is directly proportional to the area of the dielectric plate, so you'll have to keep them fuel cells filled up.
Again, it will not be a small system, and you'll pay some (benefits) for energising your electric in such a way.
Maybe the small truck to commercial vehicle and big SUV market will be suitable for such systems, or experimenting at least.
Anyone doing so?

Oznog said:

A windmill-powered car is a perpetual motion machine. Well, the first half of what RadioRon said- having a windmill that worked when parked- is possible, even if impractical to carry around a huge windmill.

Click to expand...

I would disagree (now that's a shock! )

A windmill powered car is just a type of sailing car, just as you have sailing ships - and there have even been sailing ships with windmills feeding a propellor rather than conventional sails. No reason it couldn't be done on land, like land yachts do.

I'm not saying it's in any way practical, but it's NOT perpetual motion, it's just using windpower.

If you bring along a nagging woman as a passenger, it's indeed a perpetual motion machine either way.

arrie said:

I understood it differently.
Typically, I took it as similar to these little systems to indicate wind speed.
You'll have quite a few of them mounted on the roof, as the car drives, the wind turns them, turning a small genny, helping to charge the battery.
No perpet thing here
It'll just help, along with all the other systems (forming the complete hybrid), solar, free running wheel/s on the road also powering small gennys, etc. to help put power back into the battery/ies.
And I was also kinda joking, because such a complex system will not be feasible.

Do you understand what I'm saying oznog?

Click to expand...

Yeah. You're still describing free energy. You can't use the batt to make the vehicle go forward and then use wind created to turn a fan and charge the batt. The explanation that it's not "perpetual" just extending the range doesn't change the problem that it's expecting to get energy for free. Any wind device that generates 50W would have to create enough drag that it would need 100W more power from the batts to maintain the same speed. TANSTAAFL. It's a just roundable example of the plan to run a generator off the motion of the vehicle to charge the batt; it's completely mistaken and will always increase the battery load not reduce it when trying to maintain a constant speed.

Nigel Goodwin said:

I would disagree (now that's a shock! )

A windmill powered car is just a type of sailing car, just as you have sailing ships - and there have even been sailing ships with windmills feeding a propellor rather than conventional sails. No reason it couldn't be done on land, like land yachts do.

I'm not saying it's in any way practical, but it's NOT perpetual motion, it's just using windpower.

Click to expand...

Hahaha yeah there IS an example where it "works", just not a real-world example for cars on a road. If you have a natural wind from the side, a windmill turned sideways can capture energy from it without adding to the forward drag. In fact yes a sail would do the same thing far more simply, more efficiently and cheaper. But the wind must be very high to support a useful car speed, and you don't have your choice of directions for tacking while driving down a road. Realistically the net vector of the relative wind is going to be straight-in or only slightly to the side unless you're in a hurricane.

Of course we'd extend range for real if there's a tailwind. However, unless you're going dead slow with a huge tailwind, the net relative wind will still be going front-to-rear. When the relative wind is from the front, any attempt to further capitalize on the tailwind with a parachute or whatever will fail, merely increasing the drag and reducing range.

I don't think Tacking down the road would be practical altho they did have an amphicar which you could just keep driving when you come to that body
of water,I think it had small propellers sticking out the back and used the wheels as rudders

Oznog said:

Any wind device that generates 50W would have to create enough drag that it would need 100W more power from the batts to maintain the same speed.

Click to expand...

I'll accept that.

TRexall said:

I don't think Tacking down the road would be practical altho they did have an amphicar which you could just keep driving when you come to that body
of water,I think it had small propellers sticking out the back and used the wheels as rudders

Click to expand...

The ships built that way used vertical windmills driving propellors, so it didn't matter which way the wind blew, and no tacking required.

OK...EVS do have an image problem..Most people view them as nothing more than glorified golf carts.I think ICE's have many downsides too...Heavy Bulky Motor
with many ,many parts which could fail..gaskets that could and eventually leak.
Heavy gas Tank ...How heavy is a full tank of gas?
Catalytic converter which is a fire hazard.
Oil that has to be changed frequently..how much does 4 quarts of oil weigh?
Air filters that have to be changed,spark plugs,sensors that go bad .
Heavy bulky Transmission.
Radiator...How much does a full radiator weigh?...with coolant that has to be flushed.
Muffler and pipe system which isn't exactly light either..which corrodes and has to be repaired eventually.
Not to mention the expense of the fuel involved..An ICE is a messy polluting beast.
and these vehicles run out of gas....ever run out of gas miles from home with no gas station in sight?...not a pretty picture.

and these vehicles run out of gas....ever run out of gas miles from home with no gas station in sight?...not a pretty picture.

Click to expand...

I have, after midnight, halfway between 2 small towns. State police picked me up, took me to a gas station and then returned me to the car. It's a lot easier to get a gallon of fuel than it is to recharge a battery in the middle of nowhere.

I have, after midnight, halfway between 2 small towns. State police picked me up, took me to a gas station and then returned me to the car. It's a lot easier to get a gallon of fuel than it is to recharge a battery in the middle of nowhere.

Click to expand...

I tend to agree,but breakdowns can happen with any mechanical device as far as that goes.
I allways travel with a Portable Generator so I can recharge on the fly..

Where are you going to find electricity to charge a battery for hours in the middle of no where?

At a gas station you just fill a container or fill the car's gas tank in a couple of minutes.

At a gas station you just fill a container or fill the car's gas tank in a couple of minutes.

Click to expand...

But what if you have a blown head gasket...fuel will get you no-where

Turbos blow head gaskets.
Simply don't use a turbo and take it easy.

I would probably be using either hub-mounted motors or a main dc Powered motor with no head gaskets.(and one moving part)