Green energy, in a warmer climate, will it handle the extreme weather?

[HarveyH42]

There is definitely degradation to output with heat. I've been trying to find a curve, but have been busy. I'll post one when I find it.

EDIT: Looks like current goes up just a bit, but voltage drops quite a lot. You can find graphs on the datasheets. Here's one from BP for a 215W panel.

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I've been reading about it since before I started putting up panels. Won't to know just what I was getting into, what I needed, and best value for my money. Obviously heat is semiconductor friendly, we are careful not drive them to the point of getting hot, and use heat sinks to move excessive heat away from devices. The fans and vents on our computers aren't there just for fun. Mostly, just another personal attack, more insults.

I do have some serious energy cost concerns, and expect an alarming increase in rates over the next couple of years, or set to take effect after Obama leaves the White House. Carbon tax just seems to attractive to pass up, and our Federal Government is hurting for cash. Carbon Credits seem like a profitable commodity, although I haven't had enough interest to take more than a casual glance. Any tax on the energy producers, will only be passed down onto the consumers. My last too utility bills were nearly double, because of heating the house this winter, and don't think I want to pay that every month, or be afraid to flip a switch.

Basically, individuals will be going green, as well as sinking a lot of tax money into green alternatives, but even then are going to be sure this is going to pan out in the long run?

 

[HarveyH42]

Google is our friend...

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Sort of an inverted hockey-stick


https://www.electro-tech-online.com/custompdfs/2010/02/19thEUPVSEC_5BV-2-40.pdf
Computer modeling

 

[BrownOut]

There is definitely degradation to output with heat. I've been trying to find a curve, but have been busy. I'll post one when I find it.

EDIT: Looks like current goes up just a bit, but voltage drops quite a lot. You can find graphs on the datasheets. Here's one from BP for a 215W panel.

**broken link removed**

The large temperature dependent differential was for very lightly loaded cells. The solution is simple; operate the PV's loaded, otherwise the effeciency loss has little consequense.

 

[BrownOut]

Some of the heat sinks we use in electronics are to prevent thermal runaway, where transistors heat up, pass more thermally generated current, which in turn heats the transistor more. Thus the transistor is becoming more efficient at passing more current, until resistance in the bulk silicon overheats the device and destroys it.

 

[shortbus=]

Here are a number of places still using tires as a fuel source and some that have stopped for numerous reasons. Apparently if you are in the right location and have the right permits its still not a problem.

Light em' up!

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There are also numerous patents on designs for tire fuel based heating systems that are easy to find on line as well.

A while back there was a local company that ground up junk tires and sold them to electric generating companies to burn in fluidized bed coal generating plants. He went out of business because he couldn't get a grant to grow the size of the operation to supply the needed volume.

 

[tcmtech]

I and a few others who have coal and wood fired boilers use the simpler version of just cutting up old tires with a log splitter and tossing the smaller chunks in on the coal and wood while its burning. Its very clean if done with the right rubber to solid fuel ratios.
I am planning to make a dedicated tire shear some time so that I can cut up tires into even smaller chunks for better mixing and burning.

There is also a process of cryogenic freezing them and then crushing them to fine pieces that is being experimented with.
I have pondered on that as a good way to use all that CO2 they will be collecting as a byproduct of cleaning up the industrial emissions!
Let the companies process it and liquefy it and I will happily collect it and ship it to some third world country along with all of Americas old tires and then use it to freeze tires so that I can burn the little bitty bits later with all of Americas plastics and garbage. Then sell the electricity back to America for profit too!

Anyone got a few hundred million to invest so I can get this project going full steam?
I hear Haiti needs new industrial ventures and they have loads of people who will work for next to nothing too!

 

[Hero999]

I think we should burn all flammable waste because it reduces out dependence on fossil fuels and modern incineration technology is very clean and only releases CO2 and water into the atmosphere. The whiny greenies should shut up about CO2 because if waste is burried in landfill it'll decompose and release methane and CO2 and lots of our waste is carbon neutral.

 

[tcmtech]

But I got to thinking, how well are solar panels and wind generators going to hold up in our new climate. Solar panels don't like hot, wind generators probably won't do well in hurricane force winds.

Most of the commercial stuff has 70+ M/S survivability ratings which works out to around 156 miles per hour wind speeds.
A few years ago when the first pair of big Nordex wind generators where being installed a few miles from my home I had the chance to talk to one of the Nordex engineers that was overseeing the installation and he felt quite confident that the units they where installing could take over 200 MPH peaks without direct wind damage to the blades when furled.

Its the debris thats hitting the blades at that speed that could be most of the source of possible damage. The guy I talked to figured the tower and nacelle structural parts can survive most anything that nature could throw at them. Blades and body panels are replaceable being they are designed to be rebuildable and upgradeable anyway.

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The small home owner and privately own factory built stuff has the problem of being junk and a half still. Many of them can't even stand up to regular operation within their designed working ratings let alone high level wind.

As I understand its similar with the solar panel stuff as well. Commercial aplication stuff is built to take a beating and survive with a long service life but the small scale private stuff is lucky to get to half of its rated life expectancy if treated well.

 

[HarveyH42]

I wonder if kids play around with those big wind generators. If you throw a baseball into the spinning blades, what are the chances of it getting hit and flung a good ways, and would the baseball survive? Wonder if birds ever get sucked into them, they seem to have poor luck with jet engines...

It was raining and cold to day, but not so bad for burning tires. Was a little bored, so wired up a 15 watt solar panel and charge controller, and installed into the Nissan truck, since it's likely to be sitting a while. Got the panel laying across the dash, in the cab. Windshield isn't tinted, so don't think it will hurt production much, it's just to keep the battery good, until I figure out what I'm going to do with it. Replacing the throttle body looks kind of expensive, and may not be the problem. The battery was 12.4 volts, will check it after a few sunny days, if we ever get some. Wonder if sacrificing a few tires to the AGW God, will do the trick... Mostly, I put it inside, for theft prevention, since the truck isn't in camera view, and it was raining, didn't want to figure out an outside mounting scheme. Pretty sure 15 watts is plenty to recharge and float the battery, isn't exactly new, and looks like it's got a fair amount of use on it, but pretty damn expensive to replace.

 

[tcmtech]

I wonder if kids play around with those big wind generators. If you throw a baseball into the spinning blades, what are the chances of it getting hit and flung a good ways, and would the baseball survive?

Us rural kids would play with them if we had them years ago!
I dont know about the baseball being the lowest point the blades are at is some 100 - 150 feet upon those big units. I would be impressed if anyone could toss or hit a ball that high and timed accurately enough to catch a blade also.

The ones around here have roughly a 200 foot rotor span a run at around 19 RPM so the actual tip speed is probably about the same as a well swung baseball bat.

I dont think birds are much of problem. A few do get hit on occasion but the blades make enough noise to catch their attention for the most part. Vehicle strikes out number wind generator kills thousands to one. Seems like birds just know how to avoid other moving stuff that is in the air for some reason.

I did have a blackbird go through my one wind generator a few years ago. No blade damage was done but there was a spread of feathers down wind. Its the only confirmed bird strike I have ever seen even with my having had wind generators up for around 20 years now and we have lots of birds around here as well.

I am working on getting my 9.5 footer up today now that "global warming" as graced us with nice 20 -30 F weather and light winds this week. I will have a thread on it in a few days possibly if I get the new blade hub built soon. The frame is on the tower and the generator and wiring should be done today as well. Tomorrow the gearbox and hub should be ready to install if no one stops by to visit, again.

 

[Hero999]

I remember a small bird being killed when it tried the fly through the spokes of my push-bike wheel. I was riding along and I heard something hit my wheel so I stopped, walked back an saw a bird lying dead on the road. I must've frightened it when I cycled pas and rather than having the sense to avoid me, it flew straight at my back wheel.

 

[HarveyH42]

Us rural kids would play with them if we had them years ago!
I dont know about the baseball being the lowest point the blades are at is some 100 - 150 feet upon those big units. I would be impressed if anyone could toss or hit a ball that high and timed accurately enough to catch a blade also.

The ones around here have roughly a 200 foot rotor span a run at around 19 RPM so the actual tip speed is probably about the same as a well swung baseball bat.

Sounds like an interesting golf challenge. I know I used to get bored as a kid, and they would have be irresistible, big, moving, and unattended...

Usually, animals eventual get use to noises (we make a lot, just outside our range of hearing). Birds do need to avoid objects, guess they have senses to deal with such things.

Seems like they are still trying to push the health care bill. I figured they'd drop that, and take up the CO2 issue, since they need to generate some cash, and some of those green jobs they said it would create. I guess there wouldn't quite as many people needing free health care, if they started creating jobs, most would probably buy their own insurance. Might also be wait for things to actually warm up enough, so they don't have to be worried about snowballs, on their way to the SUV they drive everyday...

 

[tcmtech]

I figured they'd drop that, and take up the CO2 issue, since they need to generate some cash, and some of those green jobs they said it would create.

The big issue now is that the numbers representing the general population who believes it or not varies greatly just by who you ask.
Its sort of like the standard issue religion claims that 100 million more people converted to religion X this year. Well may be 100 Million new members really did join religion X but what they dont tell you is that 120 million others left religion X that year as well!

Time Magazine, March 2006.**broken link removed**
Yale University, July 2007. **broken link removed**
Gallop pole, March 2009. Increased Number Think Global Warming Is ?Exaggerated?
Fox News, October 2009.FOXNews.com - Far Fewer Americans Believe in 'Global Warming'
Guardian Co. UK, October 2009.Number of Americans who believe in climate change drops, survey shows | Environment | guardian.co.uk
Washington Post, November 2009.**broken link removed**

Its been four years and its starting to look like this preacher has a growing numbers problem!
He came on strong at first but the 'alter boy incident' seems to have caused a little credibility problem along the way.

 

[HarveyH42]

Don't think it's a matter of 'believing' anymore, when politicians start agreeing on something, it's tough to turn them off. It would take a large number of voters, and some strong new candidates to change their direction. Since a lot of them are up for re-election this coming fall, they may play it safe this year, but doubt the issue is going go away, unless some major fraud is uncovered. Could happen, as there were a few high level figures leaving offices kind of quickly, and obviously not to move on to bigger and better things.

Government controlling carbon emissions, would give them a huge opportunity to generate revenue (and pocket some on the side), since it'll be a pay-to-burn system, and fossil fuel is a primary energy source for most industries. The company I work for could go out of business, and it's been around for about 120 years now. Don't think they can go back to horse-drawn wagons for deliveries, definitely a green-alternative though. It's a distribution warehouse, everything comes off a diesel truck, and goes back out to our customers the same way. Obama Economics has been rough this past year on business, first time they've laid off employees in the 18 years I've been there, and looks like a second round is weeks away. Not worried personally, I do alright on 30 hours a week, and no issues to single me out. But fewer employees, means longer hours, and harder work, for the same pay. Things should get easier as we get older...

The thing about religion, is that there have always been someone doing bad things, but they still do fairly well, and seldom a shortage on followers. You can see or touch God, can't measure or test him, yet so many have been willing to die or kill for him, give up every cent and possession if ask in his name. All from a single book, and the well crafted words of a preacher. We've already seen the similarities, so far the rising temperature can't be felt, and we are left to believe what we are told, and what we read. We have seen the strong Conviction of some members here, and have seen similar devotion on two other sites I visit (on recently banned the topic). I have two guys at work, whom are in just as deep, and I avoid getting them started (well, sometimes, when my break is almost over, and want to screw over another employee sitting at the table).

Just think there is enough of a following, and a few other countries have already adopted the mandates. There is money to be made off this, and that seems to be another important factor for any church or government. Isn't the Catholic church one of the wealthiest organizations on the planet? This thing will most likely happen, it's been in the works for a while, longer than 4 years, and I hope to get some sort of home power set up going, before it goes into full effect.

Really should take a look at refrigeration off the grid. Don't have a huge demand, but I can't stand a warm beer. Don't drink them very often, but I want it ice cold when I do, not to mention groceries don't last long during the summer months. Beyond that, I think I could by off the grid well enough. Can't cook over a tire-fire, but have too many oak trees around, should be good for years, unless some tree-bugger neighbor complains about 200+ year old trees...

 

[HarveyH42]

Damn this cold weather keeps hanging on... Was sunny, with a cool strong breeze when I took the dog out. Figured a T-shirt would fine, but as sun went down, so did the temperature, at an alarming rate. Haven't had that experience since I lived out west.

Been thinking about Al Gore's latest invention, Carbon Credits. Still don't quite understand how that all works, but then again I'm still thing I had used the internet at school, back in the mid 70's... I understand that the credits are bought and sold as any commodity, but who produces and distributes them? I know it's of little concern for an occasional tire-burner, but was thinking what if they get greedy, and decide to expand the idea, from the major oil coil producers/users, to everyone, just like the internet was mostly academic, until Mr. Gore found out it was great for distributing p0rnography. What if each household were only allotted a certain number of credits per year, and had to either purchase more, a sell the surplus. I have no doubts that, most of the actual costs will be passed down to the working class (those who still have jobs), everybody else will continue to do business as usual, CO2 production and all, while patting themselves on the back, because they are doing the 'right' thing, and helping to save the planet.

I still wish they'd be putting the time and money into making alternative energy more affordable and effective, rather than making traditional energy more expensive. Guess its the quick and simple solution, have to use less, because you can only afford less...

 

[tcmtech]

I have no idea of how anyone would ever accurately measure the carbon output per person in any rational aplication. How do you measure all of the different substances that get burned and for what reasons?

Around here it is common to burn old hay at times and burning off heavier crop residues like corn, sunflower, canola, and other high fiberous crop materials that dont decompose over one seasons time is a normal thing. So is burning off ditches and some water ways and ponds for snow and spring drainage maintenance. Around here thats a part of good land management and stewardship practices.

Are they going to make farmers and ranchers buy a few hundred tons of carbon credits so they can do their jobs?
Or make people who use scrap wood for home heat measure the weight and density of all the wood they collect and burn?
What about all of the other stuff that gets burned for any other reason as well?
It gets way to complicated and impractical when viewed in a real life aplication.

And what exactly does buying a carbon credit really get me?
If I burn a 100 tons of stuff legally with purchased carbon credit wavers for it does that mean that it doesn't put any carbon out? But yet if I where to burn the same amount illegally then it would release carbon?
Sounds like bureaucratic regulations that wont do a thing in reality. The same material burns either way and the same carbon gets redistributed just the same.
Sorry but in my chemistry and physics books the laws of nature don't bow down to the will of bureaucrats no matter how hard they protest.

 

[HarveyH42]

That's what what bureaucracy is all about, a lot of paper, but nothing actually getting done... Pretty much how I got the credit system figured, the output will remain about the same, just somebody making a profit off it. The additional costs being passed down to those who can't afford it. I think it just a way to get their foot in the door. The consensus will look at their CO2 readings, and tell us we still have a big problem, and need to do more. Tighter restrictions, include more people, maybe another 'greenhouse' gas.

Outdoor burning has to be done. A lot of states do controlled burns, to help cut down on massive wildfires, thousands of acres per year. Not too mention California's annual wildfires, and the occasional arsonist. I think one large volcano would set things back years, in just a few days of eruption, but then again, that's natural CO2, and only man-made CO2 causes warming (still haven't got a hold of the difference in the molecules).

 

[Hero999]

Damn this cold weather keeps hanging on... Was sunny, with a cool strong breeze when I took the dog out. Figured a T-shirt would fine, but as sun went down, so did the temperature, at an alarming rate. Haven't had that experience since I lived out west.

Which part of Florida are you from?

I wonder if temperatures being below average in your part of the world has had a knock-on effect to the UK?

Although it's been a little above average the last couple of days, it's been a cold winter and spring doesn't seem to be coming any-time soon as it's forecast to stay below average for the next week or so.

I know that the gulf stream warms southern Florida and is the reason why Miami enjoys a tropical climate even though it isn't at a tropical latitude. The same gulf stream runs north to keep western Europe a good few degrees warmer than other parts of the world at similar latitudes, especially in winter.

This year the influence of the gulf stream hasn't been as strong as usual so it's been colder which leads me to believe that the cold weather in your part of the world has had a knock-on effect to the UK.

 

[killivolt]

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[BrownOut]

In case someone hasn't seen, I'm reposting data that should address the many concerns about natural v man-made CO2 emissions. Nobody has ever claimed that natural CO2 doesn't have a role to play in greenhouse warming, despite all of the claims being made on here. The important point to make is that nature has a way of absorbing the natural CO2 that's produced. The rise in atmospheric CO2 is due to the burning of fossil fuels, as well as other activities. In every writing about global warming or climate change, it is the increasing concentration of CO2 that has been discussed, never has it been any difference in molecules. Neither has any intelligent discussion made any claim that natural CO2 doesn't cause warming. Personally, I believe those misstatements are intended to confuse the issues and distort facts.

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In the data, curtsey of the US Department of Energy, the annual CO2 produced by natural means is 770,000 million metric tons, and the amount absorbed by natural processes is 781,400 million metric tons. Thus, there exists the capability to absorb 11,400 million metric tons over and above what is made by nature. This is the CO2 budget, and it shows how much CO2 can be added annually without causing a rise in the atmospheric concentration of the greenhouse gas. Now, man-made CO2 emissions are 23,100 million metric tons, which exceeds the budget by 11,700 tons. This becomes the excess CO2 in the atmosphere, which accumulates. This should be very easy to understand. (Note, these figures are averaged for the decade of the 1990's and don't show the rise in annual man made CO2 emissions, as discussed below)

It's unlikely that a single volcano eruption would dramatically upset the balance of the gas being produced and absorbed. Volcanoes emit about 0.3 billion, which is about 1% of the annual man made CO2 emissions. Even large eruptions don't have much effect on the long term accumulation of the gas.

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Those who seek to diminish the science of AGW want to paint it as a grab by concerned scientists and policy makers for power and money. I have serious doubts about that. So far, I know of nobody who has made a fortune by supporting Global Warming science. I support it, and I haven't made a dime because of it. Besides, it's become so widely accepted by scientists, educators, achedemics, government officials and just the man on the street, than nobody has a leg up to grab power when efforts to reduce it are started. The list of organizations that support the findings of the IPCC is long and impressive:

Academies of Science
InterAcademy Council
European Academy of Sciences and Arts
European Academy of Sciences and Arts
International Council of Academies of Engineering and Technological Sciences
Network of African Science Academies
Royal Society of New Zealand
Polish Academy of Sciences
National Research Council (US)
American Association for the Advancement of Science
American Chemical Society
American Institute of Physics
American Physical Society
Australian Institute of Physics
European Physical Society
European Science Foundation
Federation of Australian Scientific and Technological Societies
American Geophysical Union
European Federation of Geologists
European Geosciences Union
Geological Society of America
International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics
National Association of Geoscience Teachers
American Meteorological Society
Australian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences
Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
Royal Meteorological Society (UK)
World Meteorological Organization
American Quaternary Association
International Union for Quaternary Research
American Association of Wildlife Veterinarians
American Society for Microbiology
Australian Coral Reef Society
Institute of Biology (UK)
Society of American Foresters
The Wildlife Society (international)
American Academy of Pediatrics
American College of Preventive Medicine
American Medical Association
American Public Health Association
Australian Medical Association
World Federation of Public Health Associations
World Health Organization
American Astronomical Society
Engineers Australia (The Institution of Engineers Australia)
International Association for Great Lakes Research

With the huge numbers of people and organizations supporting the science, who could be in position to take over the world? It looks like a big tent to me, and so there should be no worry about anyone getting an undue advantage. Interestingly, there is a single organization who has expressed disagreement to the findings. Can you guess which? That's right boys and girls; it's the oil and gas industry. Evidently, trying to mitigate the effects of CO2 would hurt their stratospheric profits, and so they need to put all their resources, money and lobbyists behind the campaign of misinformation. Of course, that's how so much false data gets distributed, and eventually seems to find its way to our humble forum.