Help! Ive been circuit-napped!

[Overclocked]

You could use bondo or JB weld to keep everything together. If you use JB weld they will have to use a cutting tool to get in.

 

[jbeng]

Truthfully, I don't think hot-melt glue would be an effective way to keep prying eyes from determining the design of your circuitry. Given enough time, it can be removed. I agree with Overclocked saying that bondo or JB weld might be better [than hot-melt]. In case you've not heard of them before, these are epoxy resin compounds which are quite tough (bondo is used to repair auto bodies). A couple of problems with epoxy resins are that they can get quite hot while curing and that they may expand or shrink, possibly causing damage to your circuits. Also, I wouldn't use paint to hide the part numbers, a bit of solvent would remove the paint easily. I would suggest sanding or grinding off the numbers, then potting the project. For digital designs, programmable chips like FPGA's and PICs often have security bits to prevent reading of the chips' data, which can only be reset by erasing the memory - provided the memory is erasable in the first place.
JB

 

[hjl4]

Hold on Megamox,

You said you "sold" them a prototype??

Big mistake.

Prototypes should only be used for testing and demonstration, with you there holding on to your prototype.

When you sell something, (prototype), you sold them the technology with it.

You can see all the lawyers you want, But the point is they bought it from you, a cash transaction, and put it into prodution.

Intellectual property has very limited power in this case as you sold them the only unit you had, that you produced, for some moneys.

Check it out and weep.
A hard lesson to learn.

Also next time encase it in resin epoxy . not the clear kind, and even Xray, will have fun looking thru this stuff.

Good luck.

 

[Oznog]

Of course hot melt can be removed- get the board hot! Obviously this temp won't hurt the board or you wouldn't have dipped it in there in the first place.

Potting compounds reduce the thermal dissipation and can make designs overheat. JB Weld is steel filings in epoxy which obviously would be a poor choice for coating electrical components. Actually all rigid potting compounds should be considered carefully for their coefficient of thermal expansion. When the temp changes and the board and potting compont don't expand at the same rate, high stresses develop which can damage the board, traces, or components. Of course if a prototype isn't intended for long term use this may not be an issue.

Paint probably won't help since it can be brushed off. I like to use a Dremel wire brush to remove component markings which is of course permanent.

I suggest you contact a lawyer rather than engineers on this one. If you have enough evidence to establish their design is yours you may be able to get enough punitive damages to make it worth your while.

You might want to think about the threat that losing their design after selling a few can ruin their business with their customers. But you don't want to talk about threats until you formulate a strategy. Throwing out a few threats early on that you won't make good on might make you look like a pushover so like I say, an overall strategy is called for.

 

[spuffock]

A couple of sane ideas for prototypes.
1) after grinding off the chip numbers, chamfer the pin1 ident off, bend the legs through 180 degrees, and chamfer near pin 16. Then fit to the mirror image footprint on the board. One chip in 20 will be enough.
2) take a few diodes and burn them out to open circuit. Then fit them in places where the presence of a diode would be catastrophic. Once again, don't use too many.
3) Use a mix of base versions of transistors, ie bc183, bc183L.
Pot the whole thing in epoxy.
If anyone reverse engineers this, they would have better used their time designing a new one.

 

[zachtheterrible]

https://www.legalzoom.com/index_affiliate.asp?iRefer=131


As for pattents, I'm always hearing about this website on the radio. Apparently you can get patents, wills, divorces, etc . . . for a lot cheaper because you can do it without an attorney here. PM me if it works well, I'm curious :lol:

 

[Macka]

my uncle designs and builds proto types in a company workshop and he told me that every month the equipment they use is tested and before its tested some of the immature workers there get some really large capacitors and hook them up with reverse polarity to the power supply and hide them. When the testing people turn on the equipment there is a loud bang and white stuff goes every where.


now, the relevance of this is u could do a similar thing with the explosive idea but instead of explosives conect all your capacitors up and when they open the case bang! the capacitors are gone and it may take out more components.

you could put the etching solution in the container in an easy to break bag, when its opend the fluid will cover the circuit board nd no more tracks.

To protect from X-Rays use led

just some ideas

 

[Styx]

my uncle designs and builds proto types in a company workshop and he told me that every month the equipment they use is tested and before its tested some of the immature workers there get some really large capacitors and hook them up with reverse polarity to the power supply and hide them. When the testing people turn on the equipment there is a loud bang and white stuff goes every where.


now, the relevance of this is u could do a similar thing with the explosive idea but instead of explosives conect all your capacitors up and when they open the case bang! the capacitors are gone and it may take out more components.

you could put the etching solution in the container in an easy to break bag, when its opend the fluid will cover the circuit board nd no more tracks.

To protect from X-Rays use led

just some ideas

again illegal.
In all honesty if a company wants to reverse engineer yr creation they will and nothing really is going to stop them.
What you need to do is make it time consuming/inconvineient.

I suggest multi-layer board with buried tracks, top and bottom planes are GND/PWR planes and middle planes are tracks, that way they cannot X-ray to see tracks.

Also just pot the board. IF you have big holes in your board and use arydite then for them to get the arydite off they will damage the board rendering it useless.

 

[mstechca]

A couple of sane ideas for prototypes.
1) after grinding off the chip numbers, chamfer the pin1 ident off, bend the legs through 180 degrees, and chamfer near pin 16. Then fit to the mirror image footprint on the board. One chip in 20 will be enough.
2) take a few diodes and burn them out to open circuit. Then fit them in places where the presence of a diode would be catastrophic. Once again, don't use too many.
3) Use a mix of base versions of transistors, ie bc183, bc183L.
Pot the whole thing in epoxy.
If anyone reverse engineers this, they would have better used their time designing a new one.

I like #1. I'm also doing a circuit for someone else as well.
I think sandpaper can help too :twisted:
and another thing, sand off the numbers on all IC's, and capacitors too :twisted: :lol:
and if you got the time, and your circuit allows it, make ridiculously long and tangled tracks, so that the "reverse engineering" guy will be stressed out after going through 1/2 a maze!

and finally, immerse the circuit in paint, let it dry, and then immerse the entire circuit (except for any user components that are used during normal operation, and batteries) in rubber cement.

then they will see a blob of action! :lol:

 

[Oznog]

Fake components- I like it! I don't think a diode can be opened without burning up the case though. Don't diodes usually end up shorted?

Erase the markings on the diodes (and chips) and then make them conflict with the silkscreen in a few critical points. Call it a Zener when it's not. I like the idea of flipping some chips upside down!

Now some ideas- like his paging system- might well be stolen without even bothering to reverse engineer the board. This is likely if the implementation of a feature is obvious or readily described on the web or project magazines. I mean, if you talk about some great features it may be easier for them to design a new one with those features without the expense of reverse engineering it, and they may be able to better meet their specs with a new design. As such the features are swiped but this is not illegal unless you have patented the features or the combination of features. Difficult to protect against.

 

[spuffock]

Oznog, charge a 10,000uf to 30V and connect a 1n4148 across it, forward biassed. It'll open!
Styx- Oh come on now- how do I get to make multilayer boards in my back shed?

 

[mechie]

Epoxy Resin and Potting

I'm sure I remember a magazine article about somebody building tiny radio tracking collars and using poxy resin to pot the finished, tested circuit; the circuit would then be found not working :evil:
The article went on to suggest that as the resin set it could be crushing components enough to change their values.

If you do use something like this it would be a good idea to test it on a trial board first :!:

Removing numbers from TTL or CMOS ICs is likely to be a very minor hurdle, I have an IC tester that will search its database and identify many devices - flipping the package would be more thorough (but TTL usually has GND to pin 7?)
ChipMaster Webpage

As for patenting ideas or 'software' in the UK, the law is different to that in the US - I believe that in the UK software can only be copyrighted, simply place a copyright claim in the code and any documentation (assuming this is possible) and find some way of dating it (post a copy registered mail to yourself - keep it sealed).
Patenting will cost an ongoing fortune - ask Dyson, it isn't a single-payment deal![/url]

 

[Megamox]

Sounds like patenting an idea might end up costing me a fortune!

Im gonna try out the glue gun approach, and get hold of some epoxy resin and some potting compound and see how i get on with a trial board

I did like the diode idea but i havent been able to get one to go open circuit, so i just frantically wiggled some jumper wires up and down in the middle until i felt the conductor beneath the insulation break (open circuit) and then just connected them all over the place! Anyone copying the design should go crazy trying to figure out how its even working!

Megamox

 

[Styx]

Sounds like patenting an idea might end up costing me a fortune!

Im gonna try out the glue gun approach, and get hold of some epoxy resin and some potting compound and see how i get on with a trial board

I did like the diode idea but i havent been able to get one to go open circuit, so i just frantically wiggled some jumper wires up and down in the middle until i felt the conductor beneath the insulation break (open circuit) and then just connected them all over the place! Anyone copying the design should go crazy trying to figure out how its even working!

Megamox

Not really. It is free to register a patent and once it is registered you actually benefit from (part) of the legal aspect of a patent

That is what Patent-pending is.
Once you have registered to patent you do not have to finalised for 12Months - UNLESS you try to take a company to court on patent violation's where you must finalise the patent first.

IT can be expensive and it can be alot cheaper. Most of the expense comes from patent-solicitors doing patent-searches. IF you do alot of the work yourself then a patent solicitor wont (you have to show similar patents)

 

[Megamox]

All i really know about patenting, is that it protects your idea's from being copied, but does that mean you can patent any idea/circuit design you have?
Surely someone out there could have come up with the same design before u and you're actually copying them without knowing!

If i patent the potential divider does that mean everytime someone uses it in their circuitry i get paid a fee

Megamox

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

All i really know about patenting, is that it protects your idea's from being copied

More like "it prevents anyone poor from copying your idea", if a rich company copies it you won't be able to afford to fight them!.

 

[Styx]

All i really know about patenting, is that it protects your idea's from being copied, but does that mean you can patent any idea/circuit design you have?
Surely someone out there could have come up with the same design before u and you're actually copying them without knowing!

If i patent the potential divider does that mean everytime someone uses it in their circuitry i get paid a fee

Megamox

Well you could but it would be the biggest waste of money ever!!!
You see there is this thing called "Prior Art", the presence of prior art wont stop the filing getting processed (70% of all MS patents have prior art and thus would not stand up in court).

 

[Megamox]

Ive been trying the Glue gun, its a little awkward judging the warm up time, but its pretty strong stuff. Also ive been drilling down into any enclosure screws and ruining the groove so that they're impossible to unscrew and a real bugger to open!

Megamox

 

[Megamox]

I know this is weird, but I did want to update this thread if that's aright? - 7 Years between posts lol that must be some kind of record (Life's been keeping me busy!). It's been a while. I now encase all my designs in epoxy or potting at least and have had no trouble with companies copying designs and obviously I'm a bit weary these days when handing over prototypes for evaluation.

If there any advances in anti-reverse engineering methods that have been cultivated since these posts that are perhaps better than those discussed, do let me know, always curious! I suppose we're all into SMD now, maybe there are methods to disguise this circuitry better as every component looks like a small black box? Some SMD components are so tiny, I need to get the microscope out! That's got to be an anti-reverse engineering bonus right there!

Megamox

PS. Funny story - The lead engineer of the company I gave my prototype to (that triggered the original post) has since retired and a few months ago 'confidentially' told me, he was handed my prototype specifically to duplicate at the time. But the company has since gone bust. Oh well

 

[dr pepper]

I've pulled apart potting boxes before to either repair or copy an item or part of an item (not for financial gain though), there are various methods.
Sounds processors I used to make had the numbers ground off the chips and software locked in the microcontrollers, this makes it very difficult to copy, but even then to a very experienced electronician its still possible, my thinking at the time was that if someone was savvy enough to work out what the ic's were and could unlock the pic micro (is this possible?) then they'd probably not resort to such tactics and design their own better version.
Suffice to say there is not a fat lot you can do about your situation except learn not to trust such people.
I remember something like like happening to someone I know that developed a solid state valve sound generator, whether such a thing is any good or not is not in question here its the fact that some scroat unpacked the potting compound, sussed out what the ic's were (a couple were not standard) and tried to sell it as theirs.
I've even heard of some folks machining chips down to either look at the number of the ic on the substrate or to uv erase the protection bits of micro's, I dont know if this is true, it'd be interesting to hear someone who's come accross either of these.