Hydrogen for hybrid conversions

Some farmers run their tractors from the gas produced by chicken droppings.

audioguru said:

Some farmers run their tractors from the gas produced by chicken droppings.

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Don't you need petrol/gas engines for that?, or can you run diesel engines on methane?.

Interestingly enough I was at York University Open Day on Wednesday (as my daughter is looking for a Uni to go to). There was a guy in the Chemistry department demonstrating manufacturing diesel from 'chip fat' - which has been done for a while, but he was actually developing the process further, and recovering diesel from what's left after the current processes have recovered what they can from it.

He suggested it's a VERY good area of research, as the oil companies are looking for chemists in that field, and it's likely to get much bigger as oil supplies run lower.

@Nigel's post

I found a web page about using natural gas (mostly methane) in conjunction with diesel to get a much cleaner burn. It was news to me.

Dual-Fuel™ technology enables a heavy-duty diesel engine to operate on a high proportion of natural gas. Firstly, a Dual-Fuel™ engine is a diesel engine, unchanged in its basic thermodynamic operation. However, with Dual-Fuel™, diesel combustion is used only to ignite a metered charge of natural gas and air. A small injection of diesel is made to ignite the gas and air. This is called a pilot injection. The pilot injection is delivered by the standard, un-modified diesel injection system fitted to the engine. Once ignited, the gas and air charge burns rapidly and cleanly. By using diesel pilot ignition and retaining the diesel’s high compression ratio, the gas combustion can be achieved at very lean air-fuel mixture ratios. Known as “lean-burn”, this delivers high efficiency and low NOx emissions.

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That's just the thing, methanol can be made from chicken droppings, pig manure, almost whatever, ethanol on the other hand has a strong link with sugar. I must admit, I'm still a bit scared of methanol, but it has some advantages that I like, mostly not being made from something food.
I doubt whether you'll run methanol or whatever in a diesel engine just like that, maybe as a small part. From what I remember, most fuels will burn quite easily by you just adding some heat, but not good old diesel, oh and the stuff they used to power the sr71 with.
I actually know a guy who makes his own diesel from used cooking oil he gets from restaurants and take-aways in the area. According to him the drop in performance is big enough to actually feel it, he uses it mainly in his bakkie (pick-up truck), and also reports a real interesting smelling exhaust fume when sticking it.
I actually went to have a look while he was making his brew, funny contraption this chap used, but it seemed like a messy process.
But it works according to him, and he ends up paying virtually nothing compared to the current diesel price.
I'll probably start experimenting with methanol, the way my dogs are making droppings, I'll almost not have to use anything else.
I'll have to check out this methane story first.

arrie said:

I actually know a guy who makes his own diesel from used cooking oil he gets from restaurants and take-aways in the area. According to him the drop in performance is big enough to actually feel it, he uses it mainly in his bakkie (pick-up truck), and also reports a real interesting smelling exhaust fume when sticking it.

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See my post above, but he's obviously not doing a very good job of it if it smells and doesn't perform the same - proper bio-diesel from cooking oil and chip fat works exactly as normal diesel, and no different smell.

Thanks,
I've read that, and this prof obviously has years experimentation and some decent funding behind him. The chap I'm talking about is basically unemployed, but rather good at working with his hands, if he wants to.
He also stated to me that getting his hands on the used cooking oil can be a pain, as some big companies actually pays to collect the old oil from these restaurants, etc.
Interesting, wonder what they do with it......

I had a look at methane, it should make a good fuel, but can have some interesting challenges:
Melting point: -182.5 deg C
Boiling point: -161.6 deg C
Flash point: -188 deg C
Don't think I would like to spend all day in the sun on that tractor. Although it needs 4 to 5 times atmospheric pressure to burn, that could help the safety a bit, but then again 5 to 15% of it in air mixture is enough to take fire.
This substance really like to be a gas, other than some other drips.
Some logistics around methane, but doable.
It can be synthetically manufactured, but are also found in the earth's crust ( here and there), and abundantly on the ocean floor.
Now where is my scuba suit.......

audioguru, most places in the US as far as I know have 10% ethanol. I know NY state does at least, it's on ever gas pump I've ever used.

arrie said:

I had a look at methane, it should make a good fuel, but can have some interesting challenges:
Melting point: -182.5 deg C
Boiling point: -161.6 deg C
Flash point: -188 deg C
Don't think I would like to spend all day in the sun on that tractor. Although it needs 4 to 5 times atmospheric pressure to burn, that could help the safety a bit, but then again 5 to 15% of it in air mixture is enough to take fire.
This substance really like to be a gas, other than some other drips.
Some logistics around methane, but doable.
It can be synthetically manufactured, but are also found in the earth's crust ( here and there), and abundantly on the ocean floor.
Now where is my scuba suit.......

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The autoignition temperature for methane is around 600°C and so I think you will be safe on the tractor.

Mike.

arrie said:

Thanks,
I've read that, and this prof obviously has years experimentation and some decent funding behind him. The chap I'm talking about is basically unemployed, but rather good at working with his hands, if he wants to.

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He was a post-grad student, so as such I would have thought he wouldn't get much funding (if any)?. But his work is taking it a step further, the process of converting it to diesel direct from the original cooking oil is commonplace and well documented.

He also stated to me that getting his hands on the used cooking oil can be a pain, as some big companies actually pays to collect the old oil from these restaurants, etc.
Interesting, wonder what they do with it......

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Presumably it's recycled in some way?, possibly as bio-diesel?.

Yes Nigel, that's what I think also, and no small chap will be able to compete with such large company willing to fork out decent monies for their old oil.
I'm sure these companies must do something very useful with it, and I do not know whether used cooking oil can be made safe for human consumption again.
Must be recycled for something else.

pommie - so it autoignites around 600degC, but will ignite with a bit of help from as low as -188degC.
That's an interesting quality.
Yet, on that tractor, one would feel a bit like sitting on a bomb, as you know what is underneath you has the potential to burn right there and then, then again petrol is similar in that sense.

That brings me to another thing - storage of such volatile fuel, it should be possible to escape through some porous metals, or do you think not?

arrie said:

That brings me to another thing - storage of such volatile fuel, it should be possible to escape through some porous metals, or do you think not?

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Another 'big thing' at the moment is nano-technology, and one area of research is using it to develop containers capable of holding hydrogen without it escaping.

There seems plenty of exciting research over the next few years!

Re: Flash Point

As a follow-up to Pommie's comment, flash point seems to be one of the more misunderstood physical characteristic of substances. It is simply the temperature at which the vapor pressure (volatility) of the substance forms a combustible mixture with air. Thus, low-boiling, combustible gases have low flash points. And as expected, hydrogen and methane have very low flash points.

Autoignition temperatures may be more relevant from the standpoint of safety, as when one is sitting on an alternative fuel tractor in the sun. They also seem to be more difficult to determine, and one finds quite a bit of variation in the reported values in the literature.

Here are some representative autoignition temperatures in °C:

Methanol = 385
Ethanol = 365
Gasoline = 280 (seems low)
Methane = 580
Hydrogen = 500

Interestingly, paper is 233 (451°F)

Thus, one might say you are safer from spontaneous combustion sitting on a tractor fueled with methane or hydrogen than you are reading a newspaper waiting for more fuel to be delivered.

John

Damn, who would have thought, paper more dangerous than fuel, if those figures are accurate, one has to add.
Thanks for the figures, will come in handy.

I've started reading up on fuel cells, and a lot about fuel cells are also about the H molecule in the fluid used, some believe methanol is very good, as it's H concentration is quite high.
Fuel cells never burn their fuel, but there is a chemical reaction like normal batteries, thus, you are able to get your power from fuel, without burning it, obviously the fuel needs replenishing after some time period.
Is seems a lot of hope are penned on fuel cell technology for future alternative energy, specifically vehicles.
Something to look into as well.

Hydrogen producing automobiles.

I was looking at the stuff that that guy sent me. From the drawings I think that they resemble the drawings from the above ads here on this site. Funny I have never noticed them until now. I'll bet dollars to donuts they are the same people hawking the same info.

I hope I can get that PDF stuff up here so you guys can pick it apart.

killivolt said:

Hydrogen producing automobiles.

I was looking at the stuff that that guy sent me. From the drawings I think that they resemble the drawings from the above ads here on this site. Funny I have never noticed them until now. I'll bet dollars to donuts they are the same people hawking the same info.

I hope I can get that PDF stuff up here so you guys can pick it apart.

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That's fine, I've been through so much, if you can stick it I'll take a look. I must admit, I'm not sure I'm a firm follower of hydrogen as combustible based propulsion, definitely used in fuel cells. But indications are methanol will outperform hydrogen in fuel cells, hearsay on my part.
I do not even take note of the buy a plan deal, to many unknowns therein. If someone has good practical knowledge they want to share, I listen, that's how I'm picking up what is out there, and who knows, maybe soon I can start experimenting with some ideas, a collaboration of what everyone says.

arrie said:

That's fine, I've been through so much, if you can stick it I'll take a look. I must admit, I'm not sure I'm a firm follower of hydrogen as combustible based propulsion, definitely used in fuel cells. But indications are methanol will outperform hydrogen in fuel cells, hearsay on my part.
I do not even take note of the buy a plan deal, to many unknowns therein. If someone has good practical knowledge they want to share, I listen, that's how I'm picking up what is out there, and who knows, maybe soon I can start experimenting with some ideas, a collaboration of what everyone says.

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Ok, I was able to e-mail it to the right person who will post it. I'm sure he is busy so be patient.

It will be here soon to cut into proverbial pieces.

kv

Thanks KV.
I'm still hunting some solid detail on my equipment, traditional still seems very energy hungry, although all people claiming to use them claim large amounts saved compared to traditional fuel use.
I on the other hand believe, if you have to use energy from fossil fuel sources to obtain alternative energy, it's not quite worth it, you are still causing serious environmental damage, if not more.

jchunterelectric. I've built that PWM circuit included in the "Run your car on water" manual and it doesn't work. Not saying the entire plans are a scam, but that schematic doesn't work. The 555 was outputting a signal and so was the 4420, but nothing from the FET. Tried switching IC's, still nothing. As someone else pointed out in this thread, something is flawed in the schematic.

I've a thought that's been in my head for many years
WHY break down the water molecule to produce hydrogen and oxygen?

What happens if you drop a 230V cable into a puddle of water? it sparks like hell, but if you think about it whats actually happening is small bits of the water is exploding?

Why cant we just power a petrol car by water with obviously way modified circuitry to the spark plug to explode the water in the cylinders?

That way the only exhaust gases from the engine would be in fact water which can be recirculated and reused?

I did see a small paper on this many years ago but havent been able to find it for ages, I think someone got as far as developing a "water spark plug" but cant remember last time I saw the the only bit of research I managed to find on this was at least 2 years ago, possibly longer