Hydrogen for hybrid conversions

[Sceadwian]

You do realize what you're talking about creating is a steam engine? It will take more energy to split a water molecule into it's atomic components than you will get out of it's combustion, this is basic physics folks, grow a clue.

 

[mneary]

this is basic physics folks, grow a clue

Clues cost up to $0.25. I'll donate a few.

 

[arrie]

I think you guys have missed what karen was trying to say, but I think it (the answer) boils down to: You'll in any case need more energy to make something happen, than what you'll get out at the end of the day.
I still say we need to look at alcohol based fuel for vehicle propulsion, but hey, that's just me.
This water crap just will not fly.

 

[karenhornby]

Been searching online and while this ISN'T the document I was referring to, it's got the same basic principle I think, although I only looked for a few moments not studied it fully as I dont have time right now
https://www.electro-tech-online.com/custompdfs/2008/07/s1r9a9m9_water_car.pdf
also this is an interesting thread
**broken link removed**

A quote from another page about this..
"No one yet has been able to duplicate slr9a9m9's Camero, or they kept it quiet.
The main problem was finding the same 8 relays that slr9a9m9 used. He said they were out of an old air conditioning unit from the 50's. They had t large coils with large diodes, to prevent the AC & DC from going back to the invertor and shorting it out. Here is what slr9a9m9 said about the relays : 8/05 :
My son works for a power company and took one of the relays in for a test , He told me I had it hooked up wrong on the car , and it shouldn't work as it is hooked up , he then ran another test and found that the relay was boosting the amps from the disc cap to the plug , the coil out put on the car is 34000 volts at 0.83 amps , the power at the plug is now 24000 volts at 6.3 amps . The inverter and the relays reduce the voltage and increases the amps to the plugs . the spark advance in the disc., keeps the engine from passing the firing zone when the engine is running , it locks in
place because of the time setting . It was a lucky mistake that I happened to find the right wiring to make the car run like this .

The relays have double feed back diodes in them rated at 1800 volts ac . this is why there is no feed back to the inverter . They also have a double coil with locking contacts under load . the 4 or 5 turns of the engine when starting it is when the coils get charged and change the voltage and amps to the plugs , Once the coils charge the contacts stay closed and the coils stay charged .

Patrick from the UK, came up with substitute relays by just making some coils and using large diodes"
details here https://www.electro-tech-online.com/custompdfs/2008/07/1978CameroCoil.pdf

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

My son works for a power company and took one of the relays in for a test , He told me I had it hooked up wrong on the car , and it shouldn't work as it is hooked up , he then ran another test and found that the relay was boosting the amps from the disc cap to the plug , the coil out put on the car is 34000 volts at 0.83 amps , the power at the plug is now 24000 volts at 6.3 amps . The inverter and the relays reduce the voltage and increases the amps to the plugs . the spark advance in the disc., keeps the engine from passing the firing zone when the engine is running , it locks in
place because of the time setting . It was a lucky mistake that I happened to find the right wiring to make the car run like this .

As with this entire thread, this is just a complete load of meaningless babble, no one has ever managed to show such things working - because they don't work - there's no such thing as 'magic' which is what it would require.

 

[karenhornby]

Whie you are more than likely right Nigel there is the extremely doubtful possibility that your also wrong.
I have no idea, I dont have a car to work on at the moment or the time to experiment, but I have found an extra hour today to try and find more info on my original thoughts and finding the paper I read years ago.

now while this MIGHT all be total bunkum and total rubbish, shouldnt the POSSIBILITY that it might work be seriously considered at least?

the more I read the more I'm convinced my original idea was right, you can explode water and as such I found yet another page relating to specifically this

I've cut and pasted the relevant bits, I wont do it to all 500 pages! if anyone is interested they can look there.

"First of all I would like to explain the purpose of my work in this thread and how I have come to this very important latest discovery. It was Luc who showed us all a very interesting and simple circuit he discovered whilst attemping to work out how SR1. could be powering an engine with only water in his videos. In my previous posts I was able to reproduce the effect of exploding pure water with an electrical circuit and verify Luc's circuit and the results. I went on to show how the basic effect could be done with little input power and also at high repetition rates comparible to that of a running engine's ignition system.

With the help of my good friend Ben, it was discovered that exploding water with electrical energy was shown to have more energy output then what was required as electrical input according to the published Graneau paper as described in my previous posts. This paper explained that the released energy was from the conversion of the molecular bond energy in liquid water. This conversion occured when liquid water came into contact with an electrical plasma and the liquid water was converted into a cool fog. No heat is generated in this conversion but the explosion does result in significant kinetic energy which was shown to be greater than the input electrical energy. This process and conversion did not dissassociate or split the atomic bonds of the H2O molecule but did split the molecular bonds that hold water in a liquid state. The energy released, although significant, is far less than if the H2O molecule was split and then the hydrogen was to be ignited.

The above mentioned circuits were based on having a charged capacitor and blocking diode/diodes connected across a spark plug. Then a HV spark from an ignition coil is also placed across the spark plug. This ignition spark ionised the air and any water in contact with the spark plug electrodes. This ionisation allowed the energy in the capacitor to be discharged and cause a strong and bright electrical plasma discharge between the spark plug electrode. The water on the electrodes, when in contact with the plasma, would explode as described in the Graneau paper. The diagrams or schematics, videos and pictures of these built and proven circuits can be found in my previous posts on this thread.

Now to my latest discovery. Whilst looking at the ionising effect of the ignition spark and how it allowed the capacitor energy to piggy back itself and jump across the spark plug gap, I wondered if it was possible and if there was another way to do this that did not required a HV ignition spark to ionise the spark plug gap. After a number of tests and trials using a fouled or blocked with water spark plug gap, I soon realised that two things were going on. I could see that the water in the clogged spark plug gap would bubble slightly and that the water itself had significant resistance such that not enough current could be discharged from the capacitor. This was because there was not much ionisation going on in the water itself. Also, on noticing the bubbles I realised that there was electrolysis or the splitting of the H2O molecule going on and that hydrogen was being released from the water that was clogging the gap. So it was then I realised that to get more current flowing in the water so as to be able to discharge the capacitor, I needed to lower the resistance of the water. I needed to get the ionisation to occur in the water itself. So this was simple, I just needed to add an electrolyte to the water so this is what I did. I added SALT to the water.

As soon as I did this and sprayed it on the spark plug gap to block it, it almost immediately bubbled away and exploded indicating it was being split. After only a few tests without any HV iginition coil or ignition spark I got it to repeatedly explode!!!! The spark plug gap is a factor and the amount of salt in the water but it all works and they are just some variable factors to the performance! The explosions are unlike anything I have experienced before. They are far more powerfull and loud and very HOT! They contained on demand genertaed hydrogen explosions!!!! Please see my videos above.

With this understanding I then was able to simplify the circuit to do this considerably. Please see the schematic below. You only need a capacitor of a few hundred uF and a bridge rectifier. You can use an inverter or the power from the wall to power it and that's all!

The power yielded is far greater than that of the cool fog explosions! These explosions are HOT hydrogen explosion and are very powerfull! The salt water is being split on demand in the spark plug gap and the capacitor discharge plasma is igniting the hydrogen. It is now my opinion that if the videos of SR1. are real indeed then this is what is occurring inside his engine which will justify the power observed as my experiments have shown that the previously described cool fog explosions could not account for the power shown in the firings of his engine. He has also verified that his engine does get hot which is not possible with the cool fog explosions of the previous circuits in this thread. It is likely that the water SR1. uses has salt or other minerals in it that he may not know of, particularly if it is from a bore. This can be enough to reduce the resistance of the water. I must also point out that it is also possible that capacitor70's motorcycle engine ran on this process as he did mention that he was using bore water to power it. Any acid or base can be used in the water to change it's PH level and lower it's resistance.

But now it becomes a requirement to be able to get alot of ionised or PH altered water to the spark plug so as to block it for this to work in an engine. Also, because the ignition circuit is not required, the cylinder's compression will be required to also condensate enough water in the spark plug gap to get it to explode. The operation will be vey similar, if not the same as a diesel engine. But many variables will have to be tested with the right combinations for a particular engine for this to work. Such as the spark plug gap, cylinder compression, type of spark plug, carburetor or water injection method, conductivity of the water and so on. But I believe that this process can be used to power an engine as it yields significantly more power than the previous cool fog water explosions that have been previously described.

There is room to be able to derive an ignition type circuit to create this same described effect and HHO explosion but use the ignition timing and even the HV spark to merely trigger the connection of the capacitor to the spark plug. This can also be done via another spark gap. But this will be explored and reported further in later experiements. Such a circuit will allow the effect and process to be used in a standard HV ignition timed engine. But it is important to understand and show that HV has NOTHING to do with the resulting explosion and output energy of this process as I have done above"


This one is more like my original thoughts because it mentions using salt water to increase conductivity, and I remember thinking that using SEA water should possibly work.

Like I said I dont have a petrol engine to try any of these ideas on, or a garage to work in and actually dont have the time at present, I'm just throwing ideas and suggestions around which I fully expect everyone to rebuff without thinking seriously

however I got the same reaction in the 70's when I said I was going to run my car on oil, I got laughed at, where now I'm collecting used oil from chip shops and takeaways, filtering it to get rid of the lumpy bits, de-watering it and using it straight in the fuel tank, and also if I run out I can pop into a supermarket and pick up a couple of litres of oil and pour it in.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

however I got the same reaction in the 70's when I said I was going to run my car on oil, I got laughed at, where now I'm collecting used oil from chip shops and takeaways, filtering it to get rid of the lumpy bits, de-watering it and using it straight in the fuel tank, and also if I run out I can pop into a supermarket and pick up a couple of litres of oil and pour it in.

I don't see why you would get such a reaction?, it's what diesel engines run on - heavy fuel oil. Long, long, before the 70's, diesels runing on all kinds of strange fuels were common in farms etc.

However, your rather crude modifications to it aren't doing your engine any favours - it can be (and is) fairly easily processed to give perfectly useable diesel fuel (without smelling like a chipshop).

 

[karenhornby]

Yeh I know, convert it to biodiesel, I would do that but the engine I have at the moment and more importantly the fuel pump runs quite happily with oil
when I get a newer car then i will have to make proper biodiesel

I think what I was trying to get at earlier might have been something like these 2, plasma sparks?
I'll wait a few days for people to read it and see what they have to say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjBkqNc0GrQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXYGgMuFZUs

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Yeh I know, convert it to biodiesel, I would do that but the engine I have at the moment and more importantly the fuel pump runs quite happily with oil
when I get a newer car then i will have to make proper biodiesel

I mentioned it previously somewhere, but taking my daughter to York University open day we were given a biodiesel from chip fat demonstration n the Chemistry department. In actual fact it was one better than that, he was converting the residue (after biodiesel conversion) to extract even more biodiesel. It was a fairly simple process, adding a chemical or two, heating it up slightly, draining to another container, adding another chemical, then draining the biodiesel from the bottom (I think) of the final container. The top part was waste that was left.

 

[karenhornby]

it's relativly easy to make biodiesel as long as everyone involved is aware of the dangers, methanol fumes are highly explosive and extremely dangerous,

Below is a copy of the "famous" Dr Pepper method to make Biodiesel (basically using a dr pepper bottle to demonstrate how easy it can be.)

WARNING
I will assume that if you are reading this for the information then you are new to Biodiesel making, so just a few words of caution:
- THESE ARE DANGEROUS/POISONOUS CHEMICALS
- COMMON SENSE MUST BE USED
- YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS AND THE SAFETY OF YOURSELF AND
EVERYONE/EVERYTHING AROUND YOU
- METHANOL IS A POISON WHICH CAN BE ABSORBED THROUGH YOUR SKIN, BY
INHILATION, OR CONSUMPTION
- METHANOL CAN CAUSE BLINDNESS AND DEATH
- METHANOL IS AS FLAMMABLE AS GASOLINE/PETROL
- CARTRIDGE RESPIRATORS DO NOT WORK WITH METHANOL
- Sodium hydroxide (Caustic soda, NaOH, lye) can cause severe burns and death.
- Long-sleve shirt, full shoes and trousers are recommended, no shorts or sandals.
- Wear chemical proof gloves, apron, and eye protection.
- Do NOT inhale any vapors.
- Always have running water available to wash off any splashes.

Now that I have managed to scare you, just realize that Methanol is the fuel used in most model airplanes. In the USA methanol is available in small quantities as HEET brand fuel line antifreeze (Yellow bottle)
Lye is an every-day drain cleaner.
Both are freely available in most large shopping centres.

MATERIALS REQUIRED
1 litre oil- new or used
NaOH (lye / caustic soda), at least 6g.
--Used as a drain cleaner and can often be found next to the Drano.
Methanol at least 250ml.
--HEET® Gas- Line Antifreeze in the yellow bottle is methanol and readly available in most auto supply stores in the USA.

EQUIPMENT REQUIRED
1- 2 litre (1.9 in US) Dr Pepper Bottle in sound condition with top and dry inside.
1- measuring cup to measure out 250ml methanol
1- scale to measure 6g NaOH
OR
1- teaspoon measure metric or imperial
1- container to mix the methanol and NaOH in which makes methoxide.
1- Funnel

THE TECHNIQUE

OIL PREPERATION
If using waste oil, take one litre and heat to at least 120 deg c to remove all water.
If water is present the oil will spit and pop and carry on.
If there is a lot of water this could get very violent, so be careful.

Once the water is gone (Oil becomes calm and there is no more spitting and popping) let the oil cool.

If you are using new oil from the bottle it should have no water in it, so in this case just heat to 55deg c when you are ready to mix.

MAKING THE METHOXIDE
WARNING:
METHOXIDE IS A POISON! DO NOT BREATH VAPORS. WASH OFF ANY SPLASHES.
DO NOT MIX THE METHOXIDE IN A PLASTIC SOFT DRINK BOTTLE AS THE NaOH ATTACKS THE PLASTIC AND YOU WILL QUICKLY BE SHAKING A BOTTLE FULL OF HOLES WITH METHOXIDE GOING EVERYWHERE.

While the oil is cooling mix your methanol and NaOH(lye) to form the methoxide. Use 250ml of methanol. This is more methanol than most people use but will help insure a successful first batch.
If you are using new oil this will require 4g (about half a Teaspoon) NaOH.
For used oil, you should do a titration to determine the correct amount of NaOH to use. However, if you do not have the materials to do a titration, just use 6g- 7g NaOH as this amount almost always works. If you do not have a scales, this is about 1 level teaspoon measure (metric or imperial).

NaOH and Methanol do not readily mix, so if you are doing it by hand a bit of time and patience is required. Don't sniff the fumes. CARTRIDGE RESPIRATORS DO NOT WORK WITH METHANOL

For quickest mixing, start with the methanol at JUST body temp (not warm). As you mix, the temp will increase substantially. This is normal. Make sure ALL the NaOH (lye) is disolved. This may take 10 minutes or more.

Hand mixing can be accomplished using a spoon to stir/crush the NaOH granules; OR placing methanol/NaOH in a glass bottle with a top and shaking/ swirling until ALL NaOH is disolved.

After ALL the NaOH has disolved, top up to 250ml with fresh methanol, as there may be some evaporation during mixing.

MAKING THE BIODIESEL!
When the Oil's temp has dropped to 60 deg c or less, using a funnel, pour the litre of oil into a DRY 2 litre Dr Pepper bottle (in a pinch any other brand of bottle will do).
Take the mixture of methanol/NaOH (commonly called methoxide on this forum) and pour on top of the oil using the same funnel.
Remove funnel.
Screw the top down TIGHT onto the bottle.
Shake vigerously for about ten seconds / 40 good shakes.
NO appreciable pressure is generated during this mixing.

Now place the bottle on a table and observe the oil change colour from a "Chocolate milk to a rich, darker brown."
Then, as if by magic, within 10 minutes the by-product (commonly refered to as glycerine on this forum) starts to settle out and form an increasing layer on the bottom of the bottle.

Within an hour, most of the glycerine will be settled out. This is referred to as seperation.
Be sure to notice that you can see a very definate, slowly sinking line towards the top of the Biodiesel as the glycerine slowly settles.

You should now have a bottle containing lighter coloured biodiesel on top of a layer of darker glycerine. The biodiesel will be very cloudy, and it will take a day or two more for it to clear.
Typically the glycerine layer is about the same or a bit more than the amount of methanol used.

Ideally you now need to wash the biodiesel, but thats another subject altogether.
UK forum for bio if anyone's interested: **broken link removed**

another thing, the residue from Biodiesel making is Glycerine which can then be used for making soap




Although this has little relevance to the original topic, some might find it interesting.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Although this has little relevance to the original topic, some might find it interesting.

Yes I did, thanks very much - I've never had enough interest to look it up, so it made for interesting reading.

The guy at the university (who was a dwarf, incidently - reason for mentioning this will become obvious shortly) had a demnstration display set up on a frame, complete with wheels. The chip fat residue was in a glass vessel in the middle, with two higher bottles feeding into it, with glass taps on the outlets.

He got a step ladder in order to reach the glass taps (told you there was a good reason), and released measured amounts of the two liquids into the main vessel. The main vessel had a circular electric heater underneath it, and he heated it for just a few seconds, then drained it into another lower vessel. The lower vessel had another input from a higher bottle (steps job again), and he again measured the amount of liquid from that. The lower vessel was agitated, and left to settle - and the biodiesel and remainder drained off to separate containers.

Unfortunately he didn't explain what chemicals were in the top three bottles - I would have liked to have stopped and talk to him for awhile, but we had to rush on to the next demo (which was LCD technology and quite interesting as well).

 

[killivolt]

.

Unfortunately he didn't explain what chemicals were in the top three bottles - I would have liked to have stopped and talk to him for awhile, but we had to rush on to the next demo (which was LCD technology and quite interesting as well).

Ok now you have my interest peaked what about the LCD that proved interesting.

Does it deserve a thread of it's own ?

kv

 

[audioguru]

I have heard of people putting ordinary used cooking oil (water, crud and all) into their diesel cars and it runs perfectly with a pleasant exhaust aroma.

 

[karenhornby]

You can...
BUT
the engine wont last long, especially if your putting water and crud in it
and if it's a lucas fuel pump or one of the newer electronic types then your talking a massive repair bill,and im not talking IF it fails, i'm talking WHEN it fails

I know from experience, a couple of years ago before I got so far into this stuff as I am now, I was buying biodiesel from a commercial supplier and I thought it was great stuff

until the fuel pump died a horrible death in the middle of nowhere on probably the only day we had "real" proper deep snow in the past few years.

Turns out the "biodiesel" was nothing but veg oil thinned out with some chemicals and the pump being a lucas died
Lucas pumps need the lubrication from diesel to work properly and the oil although thinner than normal standard veg oil was still too thick and the pump ended up in pump heaven, and cost me an £800 repair bill

Thankfully it wasnt one of the newer electronic ones as that could have cost me upwards of £2000 to replace!

 

[arrie]

I think we have moved away from the sparky water business here, have we concluded it to be rubbish, or are we just too scared to talk about it further.
I've read most of the pages linked to by Karen, interesting read.
One would not know if it's real until you experiment with the methods.
Are these guys not just using high voltage to separate H's from O's, or is my chemistry lacking?
I have some problem with things said and done, but then again some thing are really interesting.
The bio-diesel option is well known, people all over the world is doing so. I do doubt the plain used oil in the tank thing though, your injectors will not like it.
Methanol and ethanol is a separate topic, one I really like, methanol especially seems a good fuel for fuel cells because of its composition. This technology is still very expensive as your dielectric is half platinum, to help neutralise the CO2 that attacks the fuel cell.
The only reason I have not yet started experimenting with making methanol is because I'm still scared crap-less of methanol, except if one can pump it directly into a fuel cell from manufacturing. Otherwise I see it as the fuel of the future, as you make it from garbage.
But of coarse, ethanol can also be made from garbage, but not with the same yield as methanol.
As I've said, I really doubt if the water thing will fly, but let's say it does. We'll be competing with our machines for one of the most precious commodities on planet earth, one life needs more that machines.
So that brings me back to what is the best fuel, fossil fuel, or alcohol based fuel.
Guess which one I choose.

 

[Electric_EyE]

AC can jump an arc, so can DC. Sounds like high wattage DC can disassociate water molecules and ignite simultaneously, unlike AC (electrolysis involves a water capacitor... and a typical capacitor will turn dc to ac). Typicle cars with coil on plug technology turn a dc pulse into AC high volts to arc across the spark plug gap. Does DC take much more power to make it jump the gap? maybe it has enough energy left to do more work? What we need here is a dual Major. EE and CE, electrical and chemical engineering.

 

[karenhornby]

I do doubt the plain used oil in the tank thing though, your injectors will not like it.

I'm actually using that in my car now your welcome to come and inspect it.
its a 1994 peugeot 405 with bosch fuel pump and injectors. no mods whatsoever.

But your right it was distracting from the subject.

I've had a bit more time this afternoon to review some of the pages I posted and I would guess they are maybe making a plasma spark?
i honestly dont know because I have no way of doing these experiments at the moment, and wont until I move house sometime and have a garage attached to work in.

The whole subject does definatly interest me and i do believe they are talking about using the water in the engine direct and NOT breaking it down into the H and O gases
unless it's broken down at the moment of spark? again I've no idea.....

the only thing I'm kind of sure is it's definatly using a LOT more current than normal spark plugs,
also I believe a mixture of ac and dc at the same time? other than that?.........

but

I do find it extremely interesting and the POSSIBILITY it MIGHT work should be investigated and not dismissed out out hand.
reflect back to those who scoffed when someone said the earth was round.....
or
those who first said "i heard someone talking on a piece of wire" first telephone!
both were said to be total nonesense and no way could they work
same with those who said a plane could never fly

 

[Electric_EyE]

I am reminded of Nikolai Tesla, he was a DC proponent. His ideas went against Westinghouse and Thomas Edison... Lot's of stuff on Tesla, smarter than Einstein he is.

 

[Mikebits]

I am no chemist (two semesters only), but this whole sparkplug thing seems to have a few problems. Looking at a standard chemistry textbook, one can look up the bond enthalpy (Energy needed to break the H-O bond) for H2O which happens to be around 684Kj per mole where 1 mole of H2O is around 1ml since density is .9 something.

Now the energy produced from a sparkplug firing seems to be around 40 milijoules. Consider 684Kj equals 684,000,000 milijoules.

It would appear from the numbers that this sparkplug would have to fire a lot of times just to convert 1ml of water into H gas and also cause it to combust.


https://books.google.com/books?id=q...X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA158,M1

https://books.google.com/books?id=d...X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result#PPA68,M1

 

[karenhornby]

Now the energy produced from a sparkplug firing seems to be around 40 milijoules. Consider 684Kj equals 684,000,000 milijoules.

Ordinary unmodified sparkplugs

I believe the ones used had the resistor moved from inside them so they were extremely low resistance, and I believe the use of DC was to increase the energy, i.e. instead of a spark consisting of a few mA it was possibly several Amps?
again all I know is my take on what they are saying, and looking at some of the video;s the spark is definatly way more increadesed in power.

What runs through my mind, is how do you produce plasma, and would plasma split/explode a water droplet in a confined metal cylinder?