math Formulas with a schematic how

[audioguru]

I spent my entire long career trying to reduce distortion, and here is a nubee wanting to make distortion!

The amp is just beginning to clip, so TURN UP THE VOLUME MORE, WAY MORE! :lol: :lol:

 

[walters]

Thanks for the help

small signal modeling of the operation of transistors, and AC analysis of the circuit. not only that, but you would also have to have some knowledge of signals, like the frequency content of certain signals, and how the frequency response of the circuit will change it.

Whats Small signal Modeling? do u mean just voltage thats are millivolts?
But whats the modeling?

Knowledge of signals? like what types or kinds of signals?

frequency content of certain signals? can u please give me examples?

frequency response of the circuit? which formulas would tell me the frequency response of the circuit?

 

[walters]

[/quote]Walters, have you thought of actually building a circuit and modifying parts?

Yea i got the Fuzz face guitar pedal so its already built, to modify the parts i just change the resistor values and capacitors values or add in networks or feedback paths or change the transitors to different betas/gains/operations just experimenting really but i really don't know what im doing in terms of actually sitting down with formulas and a calculator and using the formulas in my book

What kind of Modifications would u guys do to the fuzz face coming from a educated guess and experience?

 

[evandude]

Thanks for the help

Whats Small signal Modeling? do u mean just voltage thats are millivolts?
But whats the modeling?

Knowledge of signals? like what types or kinds of signals?

frequency content of certain signals? can u please give me examples?

frequency response of the circuit? which formulas would tell me the frequency response of the circuit?

those are things that are far too complicated to understand with just a simple explanation! that's what you have to understand.

which formulas would tell me the frequency response of the circuit?

that's exactly it, there's no single set of formulas for a given circuit... you have to DETERMINE all the formulas by ANALYZING the circuit with various techniques. and learning to do circuit analysis is a long process, as I said, you wouldn't get to this sort of thing until the 3rd year of courses in a college EE course, because you can't understand it without learning all the things they teach you beforehand. you have to work your way up from the basics! trying to figure it out by starting with advanced things and working your way DOWN to the basics won't get you there.

 

[walters]

Here is some formulas:
**broken link removed**


I think this program lets u build a network or fuzz face circuit and does the math for u its a math helper for electronics

https://www.circuit-magic.com/cm_diagram.htm

circuits laws and circuit analysis techniques are included into Circuit Magic installation Visit main page to learn about Circuit Magic

Circuit Magic is an electrical circuits simulation program specifically designed for students teaching basics electronics, electrical laws & circuit theory. Unlike many electronic circuit analyzers, Circuit Magic can analyze circuits like a man. Circuits are simulated step by step, using natural solving strategy.

With Circuit Magic's easy to use Schematics editor you can construct electrical circuit schematics consisting of direct and alternating currents devices such as resistors, capacitors, inductors, impedances, DC voltage sources, DC current sources, AC voltage sources, AC current sources.

Circuit Magic's advanced analysis capabilities, allow you to analyze basic electronic circuits using Kirchhoff's Laws, Node Voltage & Mesh Currents methods.

Circuit simulation capability to perform Alternating/Direct currents analysis using Kirchhoff's current and voltage laws, node voltage and mesh current method

https://www.circuit-magic.com/index.html

I think whats cool about this program is that it does the Math formulas for u and Shows the math formulas when doing analyze on the circuit like a fuzz face

 

[DigiTan]

From the lack of explainations I'm guessing no one can analyze the fuzz face circuit? :?

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

From the lack of explainations I'm guessing no one can analyze the fuzz face circuit? :?

The problem isn't analysing the circuit, the problem is teaching the basic electronics to understand the explaination!. All the circuits he posted links to are really old, crude and simple, but he hasn't got the basic knowledge required.

 

[audioguru]

I was trying to sim the dumb stupid simple "fuzz" circuit but gave-up when I realized that it would only make square-waves. It isn't sophisticated enough to make "sustain", "wah, wah", "reverb", "Leslie rotation" and other cool effects that we have heard for thousands or millions of years.

I think electronic circuits on the web should have a ratings system:
These ones work. Those ones don't.

But hey, somebody likes it. :lol:

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I was trying to sim the dumb stupid simple "fuzz" circuit but gave-up when I realized that it would only make square-waves. It isn't sophisticated enough to make "sustain", "wah, wah", "reverb", "Leslie rotation" and other cool effects that we have heard for thousands or millions of years.

Perhaps you're missing the point?, a fuzz pedal is designed (and I use the word 'designed' loosely!) to produce 'fuzz', which is simply distortion caused by clipping the incoming waveform (usually in the crudest way you can find!).

 

[DigiTan]

Yeah, I know what you guys mean, but it would cool if someone could walk through the math. I tried doing an analysis but I get caught up on that 100k0hm resistor that's connecting the Q1 base to the Q2 emitter. Since it was causing feedback I didn't know how to set up the problem. :?:

 

[walters]

So what causes that Fuzzy sound? A Square wave doesn't have fuzz on top of the waveform or produces fuzz what causes fuzz? is Fuzz a frequency superimposed ontop of a square wave? What gives the circuit that zzzzzzzz sound?

Yes i am looking for someone please to walk me through some schematics to get a idea how to use ohms law, series/parallel formulas, impedance formulas,frequency formulas,ect.
I don't want to get into like transform or EE but just basic formulas to do some calucations so i can walk through schematics more and understand them and to be able to use these formulas more.

The electronic books i have use the formulas but they only give like one or 2 examples of how to use the formulas but when i look at schematics its really hard to apply these formulas to a real situation.

Examples if i walked in on a job interview for electronics and the person handed me a schematic and said can tell me the total series resistance,parallel resistance, series capacitance,parallel capacitance,impedance,frequency response, capacitive reactance,Time periods RC, AC gain, and all the Resistors currents and voltages and transistors,capacitors currents and voltage points by using electronic formulas?

 

[audioguru]

So what causes that Fuzzy sound? A Square wave doesn't have fuzz on top of the waveform or produces fuzz what causes fuzz? is Fuzz a frequency superimposed ontop of a square wave? What gives the circuit that zzzzzzzz sound?

See? You don't understand the basics about signals and haven't experimented with them in class for a couple of years like everyone else. Quote: "if we give you an explanation of how the fuzz face works, for example, it's going to require that you understand the concept of small signal modeling of the operation of transistors, and AC analysis of the circuit. not only that, but you would also have to have some knowledge of signals, like the frequency content of certain signals, and how the frequency response of the circuit will change it. Then there's also the problem that since it's for a guitar, it probably operates the transistors in a way that creates non-linear distortion, which makes it much harder to analyze. These concepts are built on a LOT of the more basic electronics principles, and you won't be able to understand it without understanding the basics first."

Yes i am looking for someone please to walk me through some schematics to get a idea how to use ohms law, series/parallel formulas, impedance formulas,frequency formulas,ect.

You are going to need someone to walk you through every circuit you find for a couple of years. ANY FREEBY TEACHERS HERE?

Most if not all teachers are paid to teach their students for a few years. Are you in a Communist country? Then get your government to teach you.

 

[mstechca]

What gives the circuit that zzzzzzzz sound?

A resistor, a capacitor and an active device (transistors, 555 timer, etc).
a zzzzzzzz sound is what an oscillator makes. you should learn about oscillators.

go to electronics-tutorials.com so that you can learn electronics.

Yes i am looking for someone please to walk me through some schematics to get a idea how to use ohms law, series/parallel formulas, impedance formulas,frequency formulas,ect.

didn't we already go over this?

The electronic books i have use the formulas but they only give like one or 2 examples of how to use the formulas but when i look at schematics its really hard to apply these formulas to a real situation.

I'm not repeating my answers.

.....if i walked in on a job interview for electronics...

:lol: LMFAO :lol:
if I was the interviewer, I wouldn't hire you.

...and the person handed me a schematic and said can tell me the total series resistance,parallel resistance, series capacitance,parallel capacitance,impedance,frequency response, capacitive reactance,Time periods RC, AC gain, and all the Resistors currents and voltages and transistors,capacitors currents and voltage points by using electronic formulas?

If the interviewer asked you a question like that, then (s)he would be insane, because if the schematic is too simple (like a flashlight circuit), you can't answer the question.

Think about it, How could you do parallel capacitance equation on a circuit containing only a battery and a lamp? Ina practical sense you cant.

 

[DigiTan]

Can someone go through the math on the fuzz schematic? I've been trying to figure what to do with that feedback loop all day. This is the kind of thing I'd loose sleep over.

Also, I can't figure out where the supply voltage is supposed to be. The top pin of the 3.3k resistor is at -9Volts right? And the + terminal is the ground?

 

[walters]

I'm so sure im talking about a Flashlight schematic

[/quote]if I was the interviewer, I wouldn't hire you.

Thats why im asking the questions so i can get hired
and to learn more about electronics

 

[audioguru]

What gives the circuit that zzzzzzzz sound?

A resistor, a capacitor and an active device (transistors, 555 timer, etc).
a zzzzzzzz sound is what an oscillator makes. you should learn about oscillators.

Nope! A guitar certainly doesn't have an oscillator.

MStechca, play some music through a pretty good sound system then TURN UP THE VOLUME, WAY TOO MUCH! You'll hear "fuzz" and lots of it if the tweeters survive.
It is called clipping distortion, but old germanium PNP transistors distort differently than modern NPN silicon transistors. Vacuum tubes (valves?) distort differently than transistors.
You should also learn something about the many harmonics caused by amplifier clipping. (Hint, square waves.)

I still have some brand new AC127 and AC128 germanium transistors about 45 years old. Do you want them?
I'm not very far from you so cum-n-get them. :wink:
They are germanium so they have lotsa leakage current and are very sensitive to temperature. They leak current so much that it is difficult to measure their current gain: Nothing in results in lots out. :lol:

 

[bryan1]

Eh Walters,
Looking by the amount of basic questions your asking here and wasting everybodies time Do you know how much you should be charging for that big Mac :shock: ?????

 

[walters]

Do you think the leakage current from the transistors gives that Fuzzzzz sound?

Block diagram#1

A nice Clean sine wave>>>germanium transistor>>>output

the current and voltage are non linear now plus the germanium clipped the voltage at .3volts and added noise from the transistor electrons

Blockk diagram#2

Clean sine wave>>>silicon tranistor>>output

the current and voltages are non linear now plus the silicon clipped at .7 volts and added noise from the tranisitor electrons filling the holes


Whats the different between a Germanium transistors Non linear distortion curve VS a Silicon Non Linear distortion Curve?

Because a Germanium transistors Saturation earlier than a Silicon transistor i think?

 

[audioguru]

Do you know how much you should be charging for that big Mac :shock: ?????

Bryan, you made me hungry! :lol:
I've been chatting so much with my wifey away visiting relatives this week that I forgot (?) to eat. :lol:

 

[mstechca]

Nope!

what do you mean NO? :lol:

A guitar certainly doesn't have an oscillator.

MStechca, play some music through a pretty good sound system then TURN UP THE VOLUME, WAY TOO MUCH! You'll hear "fuzz" and lots of it if the tweeters survive.

now hang on one second here...

at the top of the following page:
https://www.electronics-tutorials.com/oscillators/oscillator-basics.htm


It states

Some people regard the design of RF Oscillators and oscillator basics in particular, to be something akin to a "black art" and after many years of swearing at "cranky" oscillators I'm not all too sure they are all that wrong. I suggest you ensure you remember this old saying: "Amplifiers oscillate and oscillators amplify"

So think about it, aren't amplifiers and oscillators combined?
amplifiers need something to process a signal. Your input is the oscillator (right?)
and for oscillators, they can't work without some gain, and the gain is the amplifier.

I still have some brand new AC127 and AC128 germanium transistors about 45 years old. Do you want them?

naaaaah :wink: