Mount St. Helens Glacier

[Nigel Goodwin]

To me, it's ridiculous that the major car companies (obviously, my bell weather example...but, conceptually applicable to other industries) haven't had hybrids on the market for decades.

I don't think hybrids are really the way forward, the Toyota is the one commonly mentioned, yet it's performance doesn't seem anything particularly special, and it's MPG isn't anything wonderful.

Really what is needed is a leap forward, no idea what or where, but playing at slightly improving existing technology isn't what is needed.

To steal from a well known science fiction author, what we need is 'Shipstones' - a small portable power storage device with exceptionally high capacity.

 

[Thunderchild]

to my mind hybrids were always a stupid idea extra weight to make the power (I presume a more powerful alternator) a second motor all that battery weight I mean its stupid and yes at the end of the day they discover the obvious they fair no better and cost more

 

[crashsite]

I don't think hybrids are really the way forward, the Toyota is the one commonly mentioned, yet it's performance doesn't seem anything particularly special, and it's MPG isn't anything wonderful.

Really what is needed is a leap forward, no idea what or where, but playing at slightly improving existing technology isn't what is needed.

The problem isn't the hybrid...it's us. Our expectations and usage of the technology is all wrong. And, it's not entirely our fault. We've been sold the wrong product for so long and our infrastructure is set up all wrong as a result.

We need a, low performance, short-range mentality for local driving (the vast majority of trips) and leave the fast, high performance driving for the occasional long trips. For those who often travel distances, let them use the "regular" car but, the car in the garage at most homes should be either an electric or a hybrid.

A system of public transit and easy rentals at destinations is certainly doable and practical to allow people to get around with acceptable alacrity...assuming they have the right mental attitude...which, unfortunately they don't.

Keep in mind that when I say, "they" I, unfortunately, largely include myself.

to my mind hybrids were always a stupid idea extra weight to make the power (I presume a more powerful alternator) a second motor all that battery weight I mean its stupid and yes at the end of the day they discover the obvious they fair no better and cost more

I'll say the same thing here. The car is not the problem....etc. etc.

Regarding the cost. Proper usage, design and massiveness of production would resolve that problem. Regarding the battery weight, again, an assumption of lower-speed, short-range usage resolves the issue.

I just don't see a problem that can't be resolved with a little attitude adjustment.

 

[crashsite]

In fact, I'll take this one step further. I used to travel quite a bit on business. When planning a trip, we'd schedule the flight, arrange the hotel and reserve a rental car. When traveling to a vacation destination beyond the desired driving range...same thing.

And, that's common. And, it's "right thinking". It's a practical solution. Use public transport to get you there and rent a car and room while you're there. We just need to extend the concept to "closer to home" trips.

 

[Thunderchild]

Regarding the battery weight, again, an assumption of lower-speed, short-range usage resolves the issue.

I just don't see a problem that can't be resolved with a little attitude adjustment.

but thats exactly what hybrids work with they use the electric for the manuvering and stuff instead of the petrol/deisel engine they start the car off and then the main motor kicks in the thing is it just don't work it makes the car look atractive because people assume it uses no petrol in powering it electrically WRONG how was the electricity made in the first place

 

[crashsite]

but thats exactly what hybrids work with they use the electric for the manuvering and stuff instead of the petrol/deisel engine they start the car off and then the main motor kicks in the thing is it just don't work it makes the car look atractive because people assume it uses no petrol in powering it electrically...

For longer trips, that's sort of the way it works. But, if you live in or near town or the city and your trip to the grocery store, hair salon, pet store, pharmacy and Burger King totals 7.8 miles and your battery range is nominally 12 miles, then the trip uses no..."petrol"...at all.

Staying on the "petrol" theme, if your trip takes you from Basingstoke to Nottingham, you either use your "long trip", petrol-powered car (which, if you are often making longer trip, your primary or only car), rental car service or perhaps a communally owned, "pool" car (hey, attitude adjustment does not mean continuing to do things exactly the same way as you used to).

There are ways to make such a system fair. For example, if you make frequent long trips you shouldn't be "punished" for owning a higher performance, all petrol (or mostly petrol) powered car. But, if you own that type of car (out of habit) and use it for short runs, you should be dinged. Credits and incentives can be used to promote car pooling, all electric and use of public transport.

...WRONG how was the electricity made in the first place

Indeed. But, that's a completely different issue than the hybrid car. That's a power generation issue that falls on the shoulders of the utility companies (for the most part). How to make the electricity available using cleaner, more efficient, earth-friendly ways is needed...along with efforts for consumers to utilize the energy better...as is being done. But, a mentality of forcing people to burn more gasoline or diesel oil in their efforts to get around is not a good reason to shun electric vehicles.

 

[crashsite]

A note about sharing. We don NOT like to do it. I used to be in a company flying club. Initially, we had a Cessna 150 and were leasing another one. Scheduling the airplane was a pain becuse you didn't know what the weather (or your work schedule) would be like on the day you were able to fly. But, that was the way it was and you adjusted to it. People can make the adaptation to the hybrid vehicle and, while it does involve new thinking and habits, it's not exactly as dire as electro-shock thereapy.

 

[saturn1bguy]

And, it's "right thinking". It's a practical solution. Use public transport to get you there and rent a car and room while you're there. We just need to extend the concept to "closer to home" trips.

Cool. You first. Let me know how it works out

 

[killivolt]

On Target.

.
And, that's common. And, it's "right thinking". It's a practical solution. Use public transport to get you there and rent a car and room while you're there. We just need to extend the concept to "closer to home" trips.

Yep, agreed. I live only 1 mile from work or less. My wife is exactly 1 mile and 50% of wear on the vehicle is gone as well as miles per gal.

My goal at purchase was to do just that in order to maintain cost. I could have obtained a much larger home with more space. At the time didn't seem logical to waste the vehicle to negligence.

You are on target 100%.

kv

 

[crashsite]

For the past couple of days I've been wracking my pea-sized brain tryng to remember a name and it finally popped into to my cognitive region. Bill Wattenberg.

When I was living and working in the SF Bay Area, I used to listen to KGO (810 kHz, clear channel). One of their op-ed guys was, Bill and he had the same idea about the hybrid car as I do (in fact, I pretty much got my views from him). But, this was about 13 or 14 years ago and, in my opinion, in that time we've progressed maybe a year or two, when we should be 13 pr 14 years ahead of then.

Anyway, for what it's worth...it was, Bill Wattenberg (not sure of the spelling)

 

[crashsite]

Okay, sure...me first...

Cool. You first. Let me know how it works out

See, here's the problem. The solution is not to do some thing or do it first or do it cool. In fact it's not to do any specific action at all. It's to do a little bit of everything with a goal to do the aggregate more efficiently and using less resources.

Here's an example. There's a local, dial-a-ride bus service that started up in my area recently (the Central Oregon area) and anyone can ride, round trip between the main towns plus a couple of side trips within a town, for $6.50 ($5.00 for seniors). Additional legs within the town are $1.25. You can also ride within your own town for $1.25 per leg.

So, a trip that would cost a nominal $20 or $30 in gasoline alone is easily less than $10. You made a challenge. My answer is that I've been trying to use the shuttle as much as possible and have found that I can really do most everything using this resource. Okay, fine...I went first...

Of course, you must keep in mind that there is a "cost" and a definite, "attitude adjustment" to using the dial-a-ride shuttle. You no longer jump in the car and go. Everything is on a pick up and delivery schedule and the scheduling usually must be done the day before. Also, trips between the towns are pretty much an all day affair no matter how slight your errands are.

So, the question is: Are you up to your own challenge? Are YOU willing to put yourself out just a tiny bit to locate and utilize something similar in your area???? Or, if not this, to find something that will do some small part in helping out dear old Mother Earth. And, yes...you get bonus points if it's, "cool".

 

[killivolt]

The gauntlet has been thrown down.

See, here's the problem. The solution is not to do some thing or do it first or do it cool. In fact it's not to do any specific action at all. It's to do a little bit of everything with a goal to do the aggregate more efficiently and using less resources.

Here's an example. There's a local, dial-a-ride bus service that started up in my area recently (the Central Oregon area) and anyone can ride, round trip between the main towns plus a couple of side trips within a town, for $6.50 ($5.00 for seniors). Additional legs within the town are $1.25. You can also ride within your own town for $1.25 per leg.

So, a trip that would cost a nominal $20 or $30 in gasoline alone is easily less than $10. You made a challenge. My answer is that I've been trying to use the shuttle as much as possible and have found that I can really do most everything using this resource. Okay, fine...I went first...

Of course, you must keep in mind that there is a "cost" and a definite, "attitude adjustment" to using the dial-a-ride shuttle. You no longer jump in the car and go. Everything is on a pick up and delivery schedule and the scheduling usually must be done the day before. Also, trips between the towns are pretty much an all day affair no matter how slight your errands are.

So, the question is: Are you up to your own challenge? Are YOU willing to put yourself out just a tiny bit to locate and utilize something similar in your area???? Or, if not this, to find something that will do some small part in helping out dear old Mother Earth. And, yes...you get bonus points if it's, "cool".

Bounce. kv

 

[saturn1bguy]

So, the question is: Are you up to your own challenge? Are YOU willing to put yourself out just a tiny bit to locate and utilize something similar in your area????

(How did I know you would bring it back to me?)

I didn't challenge myself, alas. But I do challenge those who wish to impact others. It would be nice if such could follow their own ideas, without always including everyone else.

For those who often travel distances, let them use the "regular" car but, the car in the garage at most homes should be either an electric or a hybrid.

I wish you could hear yourself, "let them use their regular car." Sigh...

I favor agency. Let a person choose his/her course. I'm all in favor of you pursuing your course of inconvenience and regression, but don't expect me, or worse, force me, or others, to follow it.

It's obvious you've identified a concern, and wish to address it. That's wonderful. But that doesn't necessarily mean the concern is valid, or valid for others, or even everyone. But I give you credit: most are not willing to do the very thing they expect of others. You appear to be different in that regard, and that shows character. And so I praise you---just don't drag me along into yesteryear...

 

[crashsite]

The, "going green problem" pretty much defined...

(How did I know you would bring it back to me?)

I didn't challenge myself, alas. But I do challenge those who wish to impact others. It would be nice if such could follow their own ideas, without always including everyone else.

I wish you could hear yourself, "let them use their regular car." Sigh...

I favor agency. Let a person choose his/her course. I'm all in favor of you pursuing your course of inconvenience and regression, but don't expect me, or worse, force me, or others, to follow it.

---just don't drag me along into yesteryear...

You are part of, "they" and your desire for "agency" pretty much defines the, "they problem". "I'm all for change and doing things better...but, on'ly for somebody else...just let me continue as I am".

Yeah, listen to myself saying, "let them use their regular cars". What you missed was that it was an attempt to mitigate the impact of "greening up" for those who legitimately typically drive longer distances (which does not typically include me since most of my trips are local...hence, the "them-ness").

Youj very much typify the stereotypical population. But, I will say this. You may not like the end result...and, I'm not talking about the global effects. I'm talking about when the government forces us to get off our collective asses and go green...and, it's surely coming (and, frankly I, for one, don't wanna listen to the pissing and moaning when it happens). Geez, you're like the Barack Obama campaign watchdogs...parsing every single word and nuance of those who would challenge you.

In fact, I don't know that we will be able to resist the government intervention (which, BTW is already happening) no matter what we do but, we can mitigate it somewhat if we voluntarily do better at it on our own.

It's interesting that you would consider using technology and other mechanisms to improve how we interface with the world as a return to "yesteryear" (jeepers creepers, I aint heard that word since the Lone Ranger opening dialog). Makes me think you are sort of like the Amish except mentally stuck in the consumerism of the 20th century rather than the austerity of the 19th.

 

[saturn1bguy]

In fact, I don't know that we will be able to resist the government intervention (which, BTW is already happening) no matter what we do but, we can mitigate it somewhat if we voluntarily do better at it on our own.

These words sound familiar. Oh yeah, that's what the people in Vichy France said.

It's interesting that you would consider using technology and other mechanisms to improve how we interface with the world as a return to "yesteryear"

You missed my whole point:

1) Your ideas are fine for you, don't include me in them, please, and 2) I don't see progression as waiting for the stage coach to rumble in so I can get to town. That's what you're proposing, and that's moving backwards.

I haven't spoken to technology at all.

 

[killivolt]

We spoiled rotten americans ? go figure.

These words sound familiar. Oh yeah, that's what the people in Vichy France said.

You missed my whole point:

1) Your ideas are fine for you, don't include me in them, please, and 2) I don't see progression as waiting for the stage coach to rumble in so I can get to town. That's what you're proposing, and that's moving backwards.

What he is suggesting may be to utilize what we have now streamline ethics and values.

You seem to think negligibly of any effect or impact but you will soon realize (Producing new technology) only addresses a small portion of the needs of the planet and it may not come as quickly as one would think.

I haven't spoken to technology at all.

We can talk new technology all day but how does it affect us now when you have spoiled rotten pig drinking vehicles.

They do no good accept to say I can spend what I want when I want. It's just me it's my money so who gets hurt ? That also sounds familiar I've heard drug addicts before that don't believe their funding major wars either.

 

[saturn1bguy]

It's just me it's my money so who gets hurt ? That also sounds familiar I've heard drug addicts before that don't believe their funding major wars either.

You attribute to me all manner of statements never made (you're quoting yourself above, not me.)

I'm not opposed to your ideas. I oppose people who heap their views or solutions on others by mandate, because they think they must be more sound. You hold nothing more than an opinion, a view. If you read my posts here, I've stated no views at all about energy use, or about alternate forms of energy.

I've solely denounced the idea of including me, or others, in your notions, without consent.

 

[crashsite]

Horses are great for carnivals, rodeos and little girls

These words sound familiar. Oh yeah, that's what the people in Vichy France said.

The Vichy French may not have been the best example. I think the exact quote when the Krauts moved in was, "Oui! We are French...we surrender".

Well, it sounds like you want to take the isolationist approach. Of course, isolationism has never protected anyone else in the past but, maybe...through some magical or mystical power...you will be the exception.

At least, when the wheels of the governmental legislative steamroller roll over you, you can have the "pride" of knowing that you never gave in to any of that environmentally friendly nonsense.

But, for people who actually give a little bit of a damn, we'll continue to congitate on it and act when and as we can. I suppose you can take some comfort in knowing that you are among the vast majority...if that's actaully a reason to take comfort...which, I suppose in your mind, it is.

I'm sure you'll disagree with this next statement very strongly (making it a bit surprising that you'd even be inclined to visit a site/forum like this) but, figuring this sort of stuff out and trying to apply it is actually kinda fun.

What makes you think I want to go back to stagecoaches for public transport? That's your "Amish" mentality leaking through. I want to see amazing technological advances, not more of the same old horse s--- (keepin on the stagecoach theme) that you seem to equate with the environmental issues.

 

[saturn1bguy]

What makes you think I want to go back to stagecoaches for public transport? I want to see amazing technological advances, not more of the same old horse s--- (keepin on the stagecoach theme) that you seem to equate with the environmental issues.

Again, I'm not speaking to technology or environmental issues, but to personal freedoms to move about at one's will, and not collectively. It seemed to me, amongst other things, you were advocating the idea that people should plan their trips more carefully (as people on a stage coach used to), than allowing people the ability to move about freely, without someone's ideas of how they should do it.

I do believe I'm repeating myself...

 

[Mikebits]

Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, remember this is a forum and not the most efficient means to communicate ideas, somewhat like a Brown gas generator.
What I am trying to say is that it is easy to misunderstand what one person might be trying to convey and in the process a small farting contest ensues. I am sure if you both were in a pub drinking a cold one, you would have a better chance at expressing your views, as text really limits so much from human communication unless one is a prolific writer. I like both you fellows and I rather not see this errupt into hard feelings. So go make smoochy like and be buddies. Perhaps just agree to disagree.

What do ya think