Who is Thilo Sarrazin?

[BrownOut]

Study your own immigration laws before you argue any more!

I know my country's immigration laws, and I'll argue as much as I please.

 

[Reloadron]

BrownOut I can see your point to a point. Boncuk did not, that I can see trash a group of people based on race, he complained about a group of people, who are in his opinion, trashing his native homeland. He complained about his government failing to address what he sees as a problem.

As to my fruits and veggies? I really don't care who picks them and I think many of them (short of the backyard) come from Chile.

As to learning the English language? I feel when people choose to enter a country, any country the have a responsibility to learn the language of their host country. So that is a bad thing?

I still fail to see racism?

You want racism? I worked many times side by side with Arabs in the UAE. I also have worked in Israel. Now forget race, how about we settle on pure hatred the type of which I have never seen anywhere.

Ron

 

[BrownOut]

As I already said, I don't care if he complains about his country's immigration policy. Does it escape your attention that the "group of people" who are trashing his native homeland were of a particular race? Do you think his comments about Arabs are flattering? I find them insulting.

Did it occur to you that many of the fruits and veggies come from California? Are you aware that California's central valley produces many of the products that show up in your grocery? When I lived there, it was a 20 Billion dollar product. I'm sure it's much more by now. Almost all of the labor is from immigration. Those who are claimed the immigrants have, how do you put it, "become a form of burden?", usually do so even as they have a belly full of the "fruits" of the immigrant's labor. Let's face it, as long as we want cheap food, our lawn cut, our cars parked, our brats cared for, etc. etc. immigrants will continue to be welcomed, even as the gripe about their presents.

I don't care if you want people to learn the language, but to equate that to being a burden, if you're like the overwhelming majority of Americans, you make the statement of burden even as you have a belly full of the food they produce. That would strike me as hypocritical.

You want racism?

Why do you think I would? Are you even paying attention???

I worked many times side by side with Arabs in the UAE. I also have worked in Israel. Now forget race, how about we settle on pure hatred the type of which I have never seen anywhere.

And that does what? Makes hatred OK? I've come across alot of hatred in both the US and Germany too (try living in the US south, and see the ugly face of racial hatred, it's still there after hundreds of years living in a racially mixed region, or just listen to the radio). I would never use that as an excuse. I'd rather make up my own mind.

PS, because of my extended time in Germany, I know that racial tension between "Germans" ( the white ones ) and Arab citizens go back, not decades, but centuries. And in terms of invading other countries, I wouldn't say Germany's record is squeeky clean.

 

[Reloadron]

As I already said, I don't care if he complains about his country's immigration policy. Does it escape your attention that the "group of people" who are trashing his native homeland were of a particular race? Do you think his comments about Arabs are flattering? I find them insulting.

The fact that you find his comments insulting is not my problem. I found his comments understandable from my perspective. His focus was on Arabs because that is where he sees the problem. Right or wrong in your opinion, he has a right to complain.

You seem to have a thing about produce don't you?

What I said, was that in my opinion when people choose (there is a choice here) to enter and reside in another country they should learn the language. I stand by that and don't care about veggies. I also don't have issues with or expect cheap veggies.

Let's face it, as long as we want cheap food, our lawn cut, our cars parked, our brats cared for, etc. etc. immigrants will continue to be welcomed, even as the gripe about their presents.

Let's face it your are speaking for yourself because you sure as hell aren't speaking for me. My lawn is cut by the guy up the street who started a lawn care business years ago. I don't want cheap food as I want good food and good nad cheap food is an oxymoron in the US. I park my own truck and as to my brats? They are grown with brats of their own. Though I prefer the word "children". However if brats trips your trigger, then use it to describe children.

When I refer to a "burden" I clearly refer to people who expect a handout from a government rather than work and provide for themselves. Really pretty simple. I dislike people who feel they are owed something without giving.

Overall I see you race baiting and playing a race card where it doesn't in my opinion belong. Hey, cool with me. You want to see race where I don't you are every bit entitled to see it as I am not to see it. It is obvious from your post in this and other threads that you lean liberal and I lean conservative so there is no sense in beating this to death. I agree with Boncuk and you and others don't. Hey, if that makes me racist in your thinking, then cool with me. I have no problem with it. You are entitled to your opinion.

Ron

 

[BrownOut]

The fact that you find his comments insulting is not my problem. I found his comments understandable from my perspective. His focus was on Arabs because that is where he sees the problem. Right or wrong in your opinion, he has a right to complain.

Who siad he doesn't have a right? Racism isn't a matter of rights, it's a matter of right and wrong.

You seem to have a thing about produce don't you?

I like produce, as do most people.

cheap food is an oxymoron in the US

That's a laugh! Most people in the world would trade their meals for the meals we enjoy.

Overall I see you race baiting and playing a race card where it doesn't in my opinion belong.

Oh, I see. Everyone has the "right" to their opinion, unless I disagree, then I"m "race baiting" Good way to advoid the issue.

What I said, was that in my opinion when people choose (there is a choice here) to enter and reside in another country they should learn the language. I stand by that and don't care about veggies. I also don't have issues with or expect cheap veggies.

I'm not talking about language, I am clearly refering to the fact that those people working their asses off so we can enjoy cheap food. It's a fact, no matter how many times you deny it.

Let's face it your are speaking for yourself because you sure as hell aren't speaking for me. My lawn is cut by the guy up the street who started a lawn care business years ago. I don't want cheap food as I want good food and good nad cheap food is an oxymoron in the US. I park my own truck and as to my brats? They are grown with brats of their own. Though I prefer the word "children". However if brats trips your trigger, then use it to describe children.

I didn't say I was speaking for you or me. I cut my own grass and I don't have any brats. I don't care who cuts your grass, but the fact is many americans take advantage of those services. If you dont', then great, but you miss the point. I'm not surprised.

 

[Reloadron]

I didn't say I was speaking for you or me. I cut my own grass and I don't have any brats. I don't care who cuts your grass, but the fact is many americans take advantage of those services. If you dont', then great, but you miss the point. I'm not surprised.

I didn't miss it, I chose not to argue it.

Look we obviously don't share any common political ground so let's just drop it. I see your views and just don't agree with them. Sitting here exchanging words isn't going to change our stance. We could not beat this any further into the ground. Have yourself a nice Sunday afternoon.

Ron

 

[BrownOut]

If you decide to not discuss this further, that's OK with me. But I see no need for an agreement to not discuss it, since this is an open thread.

My Sunday afternoon had been excellent to far, and in a few hours I get to watch the Dallas Cowboys open thier season. Gong-Ga! Hope you Sunday is fine as well.

 

[cr0sh]

Look we obviously don't share any common political ground so let's just drop it. I see your views and just don't agree with them. Sitting here exchanging words isn't going to change our stance.

This is threadjacking, but I have to ask - what would change "the stance"? You have your opinion, I have mine, others have theirs - and that's OK if ultimately it helps to move our country forward. All I see lately, though, is a nation divided on seemingly every single issue under the sun. We are falling, I fear...

 

[Reloadron]

If you decide to not discuss this further, that's OK with me. But I see no need for an agreement to not discuss it, since this is an open thread.

My Sunday afternoon had been excellent to far, and in a few hours I get to watch the Dallas Cowboys open thier season. Gong-Ga! Hope you Sunday is fine as well.

Yeah, not a bad day here as Fall moves in. I want to live where you are. I want warm when I retire in a few years.

I watched the Browns lose the opener but that is nothing new. I have problems here in Cleveland anyway. I was NYC born and raised. My grandfather took me to Brooklyn Dodger games. Hell I still love my Yankees, Mets, Jets and Giants. People around here figure I should be a Browns & Indians fan.

@Cr0sh:

This is threadjacking, but I have to ask - what would change "the stance"? You have your opinion, I have mine, others have theirs - and that's OK if ultimately it helps to move our country forward. All I see lately, though, is a nation divided on seemingly every single issue under the sun. We are falling, I fear...

Naw, most threads in the break area drift off target. Yeah, I see the same as to a Nation Divided and I worry a little about that too. When it comes to this thread myself and BrownOut simply disagree. I think we both have the wisdom to see that continuing to argue won't change anything especially either of our stances.

Personally if BrownOut needed some obscure part and I had it I would send it to him. I have always admired his and your post and respected them. Just because we may disagree on politics or a hot political issue doesn't mean I dislike him or you. Yeah, I would send you a part also.

Ron

 

[BrownOut]

I watched the Browns lose the opener but that is nothing new. I have problems here in Cleveland anyway

\

I've often wondered how the Cleavland fans embrace the Browns, since they aren't "The" Browns. I remember Browns fans being some of the most loyal and supportive fans, back in the day...

 

[Reloadron]

\

I've often wondered how the Cleavland fans embrace the Browns, since they aren't "The" Browns. I remember Browns fans being some of the most loyal and supportive fans, back in the day...

All I knows is the Browns moved to Baltimore where once the Colts moved out literally in the middle of the night. But because Cleveland argued things the new Baltimore Browns became the Baltimore Ravens and Cleveland eventually got a new NFL franchise they decided to name the Browns. Go figure huh? Cleveland is a strange place that will embrace anything. Phoenix has the Arizona Cardinals who were the St. Louis Cardinals but today are playing the St. Louis Rams so figure that? Something that makes less sense than politics has to be the NFL.

Oh yeah, the wife makes an annual pilgrimage to Phoenix to spend a few weeks with her cousin. She likes to go in February so I can drive her to the airport in ass deep snow.

Ron

 

[BrownOut]

You have your opinion, I have mine, others have theirs - and that's OK if ultimately it helps to move our country forward. All I see lately, though, is a nation divided on seemingly every single issue under the sun. We are falling, I fear...

I find myself in complete agreement with you again. They say our society have never been so divided. I've only been here for the last 50 years, so I can't say one way or the other. But what I can say is nothing ever gets accomplished because we are, in fact, so divided. Now, I've been accused of being a "liberal" on here many time, and again today. But respecting people is not a liberal or conservative issue, it's a human issue. The gas bags on Fox news, etc, claim to be conservatives, but have hijacked political conservatism and bastardized it. Real conservatives don't need to use degrading rhetoric to get their views across, and unfortunately, too many regular people are adopting this distorted non-reality. Now despite being repeatedly called a liberal, I'm not for open boarders or anything like that. But I do know that degrading remarks are never, never going to solve anything. That's one reason we're at a stalemant now, and will remain so for the forseeable future. "Conservatives" need to understand the real reasons we have immigration, and "liberals" need to understand that bad stuff comes along with the good stuff. Only then are we going to make any progress at all.

The other point I want to make is, all over the world, immigrants are moving from poor countries to rich ones. People will always want someone else to do the hard, backbreaking work, and poor people will always be willing to move theirselves and families to make a better life. That's just the way things are, and griping and carping will never change it. Better to find ways to live together, I'm thinking.

 

[Boncuk]

Are you a farmer? Do you grow your own food?

That question was not addressed to me but I'll answer on the behalf of the addressee: I used to work on a farm during summer vacation (times when other students go to the beach to chase chicken) and had a lot of fun besides serious and hard work. I got up at 4 o'clock in the morning milking 22 cows manually, feed them, feed the porks and two work horses, the ducks and chicken.

After that I enjoyed my well earned breakfast consisting of heavy bread, baked potatoes, eggs, bacon and - believe it or not, 2l of self brewed beer.

Thereafter I grabbed the "Lanz" tractor (gasoline started and diesel driven after switching tanks) and plowed fields to get them ready for the seed of wheat, potatoes and vegetables.

When the crop started growing I took care of keeping the crop free of grass and other unwanted stuff (not using chemical stuff, but pulling the unwanted roots by hand).

Day's work was normally finished at 9 PM after feeding the animals.

If not, do you buy your food at a supermarket, like 99% of the population does?
If you buy your fruits, vegetables, etc at the supermarket, do you check with the manager and make sure that the food was grown, gathered and transported by people who have learned English?

IMO that question is totally displaced having nothing to do with the thread!

I don't have so much of a problem with Boncuk complaining about immigration policy. But his description of Muslims smacks of racism.

I can't discover the faintest detail of racism in my description.

But anyway, I've lived in Germany and many of the Germans I knew were drunks. So does that mean all Germans are drunks? Well, if I adopt the group think, then I could conclude that to be true.

Don't you smell your own racism out of that sentence? You just have discriminated all Germans to be drunks! You certainly have lived in the wrong environment whose population consisted of more than 20% of unemployed people with no hope for employment drowning their dreams and wishes in alcohol!

I would be engaging in the same racism that I see prevailing on this thread ( and others ) Well, not racism per se, but chauvinism for sure. And I say once again; the Arabs I've worked with are industrious, well mannered and law-abiding people.

You are obviously talking about your own racism. The Arabs you worked with were of the kind not escaping their country to get social care at foreign countries to behave there like street robbers! Did you visit small villages, where 99% of the population are unalphabets? Certainly not! You did your job with educated people.

Boncuks hero sounds suspiciously like the many professional racists in the US that jam the AM airwaves and Fox News with vitriolic hatred. Hate is such an easy emotion to drum up, and many Americans fall too easily into that trap.

Stay on the carpet please!

Each time someone comes on here to trash a group of people biased on their race, it will be seen as racism by many, there is just no way around that. It's a slippery slope that's best avoided.

In alteration: "To be or not to be? - that is the question (Shakespeare)" --> "To see or not see? - that is the question (Boncuk)".

And finally: 5,000,000 flies shared a horse apple. Two men passing by observed the gigantic "dinner" and one asked the other: "Do you think horse apples are good to eat?" "They must be excellent." the addressee replied. "5,000,000 flies can't be in error."

Boncuk

 

[Boncuk]

I know my country's immigration laws, and I'll argue as much as I please.

Are there still negroes to be found dead in a swamp, perforated by 80 bullets, tared, feathered and drowned, having committed suicide?

Boncuk

 

[BrownOut]

IMO that question is totally displaced having nothing to do with the thread!

It's relevant in the context of the discussion we were having.

Don't you smell your own racism out of that sentence? You just have discriminated all Germans to be drunks

You need to learn how to read. I said "IF" I adopted the group think, which I don't. For the reading challenged, I don't think all Germans are drunks. (Many of my friends are German immigrants)

You are obviously talking about your own racism. The Arabs you worked with were of the kind not escaping their country to get social care at foreign countries to behave there like street robbers!

I said the the Arabs I know are industrious, well mannered and law-abiding. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.

Are there still negroes to be found dead in a swamp, perforated by 80 bullets, tared, feathered and drowned, having committed suicide?

And your point is what? That there are racists in the US? Did you read where I already said that? Does that make racism OK? BTW, we don't call them negroes.

 

[Boncuk]

It's relevant in the context of the discussion we were having.

You need to learn how to read. I said "IF" I adopted the group think, which I don't. For the reading challenged, I don't think all Germans are drunks. (Many of my friends are German immigrants)

A very interesting remark of a greenhorn! Here's your statement again: "But anyway, I've lived in Germany and many of the Germans I knew were drunks."

There is no "if" contained in that statement, but it makes me a drunk, which I strongly think is discrimination of the worst kind.

I said the the Arabs I know are industrious, well mannered and law-abiding. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.

I said the the Arabs living in Germany are of the lowest social stage. If they were well educated, law-abiding and industrious they would certainly stay in their own country and find well-payed jobs.

YOU ARE TWISTING WORDS IN OTHER PEOPLE'S MOUTHS TO BE RIGHT!

Clearly, you have no idea of good manners! It has never been wise to leave child's room too early, still wet behind the ears.

And your point is what? That there are racists in the US? Did you read where I already said that? Does that make racism OK? BTW, we don't call them negroes.

Make your own rime on that. Fact is that that kind of suicide was committed very often in Alabama, not too long ago.

So you still call them "niggers"? I preferred to call them crocodiles as I used to call myself a crocodile, with a slight difference: they are a bit greener than I am.

Here is my résumé:

You claim not be a racist, but you call Germans drunks on the other hand. (fit - no fit?)

You claim me being racist not having the faintest idea what it means living in a foreign country. Telling me that you have worked with well educated, orderly Arabs doesn't necessarily mean 100% of them are the same as the ones you have met. You should have moved your a.. from time to time to get acquainted to the country and its population.

Don't only visit the skyscrapers when visiting a foreign country. Dive into the earthen, wooden or tin huts from time to time and find out about "normal" life (about 80% of the population)

Just for comparison: Living in Thailand and just see Bangkok (and the luxury) doesn't represent Thailand and it's population.

Go visit village people doing 14 hours of hard farm work daily, enjoying life and welcoming you to share their meals with you. They don't even speak Thai, but Laos-Issaan, a language which nobody understands in Bangkok. I understand both languages pretty well.

Last not least: Stop spraying your poison in the forum. I started the thread to "report" about the present dilemma of immigrants in Germany which was primarily caused by steadily fattening government members without seeing the development for a period of more than 30 years. It was time somebody raised his voice and put his fingers into that wound.

I didn't expect it to deteriorate into a monologue of a man spreading his "only truth" like a religion.

Therefore I have asked the site owner to close this thread immediately (before I go berserk).

My final conclusion: You have missed your profession by 100%. You should better look for a job as propaganda minister in a 3rd world country.

I hope you got me this time.

Boncuk

 

[BrownOut]

A very interesting remark of a greenhorn! Here's your statement again: "But anyway, I've lived in Germany and many of the Germans I knew were drunks."

There is no "if" contained in that statement, but it makes me a drunk, which I strongly think is discrimination of the worst kind.

Nice job of editing. Below is the whole statement:

But anyway, I've lived in Germany and many of the Germans I knew were drunks. So does that mean all Germans are drunks? Well, if I adopt the group think, then I could conclude that to be true.

See the big, fat "if"? You're very dishonest to say otherwise.

Make your own rime on that. Fact is that that kind of suicide was committed very often in Alabama, not too long ago.

Still waiting for a point in there.

So you still call them "niggers"?

No, that's a insulting perjoritive. But many racists use that word, and it's disgusting.

You claim not be a racist, but you call Germans drunks on the other hand.

I never made any such claim. Lying doesn't become you.

Don't only visit the skyscrapers when visiting a foreign country. Dive into the earthen, wooden or tin huts from time to time and find out about "normal" life

I lived and was emersed in germany for many years. I visited all the high spots, and all the low ones.

Go visit village people doing 14 hours of hard farm work daily

I lived in an immigrant neighborhood in Salinas Ca for 5 years. Most of the peolpe I know who complain about the immigrants wouldn't last 10 minutes doing the work they do, including me.

Last not least: Stop spraying your poison in the forum.

I'll continue to speak my mind. You've made comments that other, besides me, see as smacking of racism, and I just happen to agree with them. If that chaps you hide, then tough titties.

 

[Boncuk]

A statement is normally ended with a full stop. Being followed by another statement possibly saying the opposite makes it completely worthless!

You should know that. I'm trying to edit your texts at all. Just be aware what you're doing.

See the big, fat "if"? You're very dishonest to say otherwise.

.

CAUTION: You're already moving on glace ice calling me a liar!

Still waiting for a point in there.

If you haven't grabbed it by now start thinking.

No, that's a insulting perjoritive. But many racists use that word, and it's disgusting.

No more comment from my side considering how you call crocodiles in Alabama.

I never made any such claim. Lying doesn't become you.

I certainly don't lie, but it seems you like to "bend" the truth to fit your needs.

I lived and was emersed in germany for many years. I visited all the high spots, and all the low ones.

I wish you had really visited ALL of the high and ALL of the low spots as you claim. To me it seems you have experienced Germany as the rest of the GIs I made acquaintance with.

I tell you what: You have seen your BX, your commissary and occasionally a bit of the German scenery.

I lived in an immigrant neighborhood in Salinas Ca for 5 years. Most of the peolpe I know who complain about the immigrants wouldn't last 10 minutes doing the work they do, including me.

Are you telling me you are too weak for a bit of body work? You can perform an excellent fitness training in Thailand pushing a rice tractor through the mud. I bet after that you can show the immigrants in Salinas how to work quickly and efficiently.

I'll continue to speak my mind. You've made comments that other, besides me, see as smacking of racism, and I just happen to agree with them.

No objections speaking your mind. Presuming I'm a racist is not the best way to discuss any theme with me. Be it known to you and "others" (one more).

If that chaps you hide, then tough titties.

No translation available for that. Sorry (language barrier).

And once again: You should really think about becoming propaganda minister in a 3rd world country as I already suggested.

Have you studied at a school of Jesuits?

 

[BrownOut]

A statement is normally ended with a full stop. Being followed by another statement possibly saying the opposite makes it completely worthless!

You should know that. I'm trying to edit your texts at all. Just be aware what you're doing.

That's your excuse for editing my statement and leaving out important information? Tsk, tsk, so dishonest.

If you haven't grabbed it by now start thinking.

Make a point and I'll give it some thought.

I wish you had really visited ALL of the high and ALL of the low spots as you claim. To me it seems you have experienced Germany as the rest of the GIs I made acquaintance with.

I tell you what: You have seen your BX, your commissary and occasionally a bit of the German scenery.

You don't know what my experience is. I travelled extensively when I lived there. Why should we believe anything you say after you demonstrate you're willing to tell someone what his experience is despite not witnessing them?

Are you telling me you are too weak for a bit of body work? You can perform an excellent fitness training in Thailand pushing a rice tractor through the mud. I bet after that you can show the immigrants in Salinas how to work quickly and efficiently.

I'd like to see you try to do thier work LOL! If it were easy, they would not be required.

And once again: You should really think about becoming propaganda minister in a 3rd world country as I already suggested.

I'll come to you for training

Seriously though, these peurile rants only make you look foolish, and not capable of having an honest discussion. I really doubt you're convincing anyone, except those who already hate.

 

[Boncuk]

Jawohl, Herr Reichspropagandaminister!

I consider this thread ended.

Read Mr. Thilo Sarrazin's book. May be you'll call him a racist as well. If so I hope he'll get the prosecutors on your back.

You're a helpless case of ignorance!