Worldwide lighting made 20% more efficienct.

I'm having a hard time figuring out if iSotera is for real or a slickly marketed scam. Transformers aren't my field but getting 50W+ (efficiently to boot) out of a wire clamp on a single wire of a twisted pair in a wire loop running at 51kHz that can be terminated to any length just seems like magic (or smoke and mirrors) to me. Their YouTube video shows a massive LED lamp (with big heat sink fins) being fed off of what looks like 24 gauge hookup wire from an electrically exposed spring speaker clip.

Flyback said:

no thats right

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I call shenanigans.

Flyback said:

as ()blivion pointed out............this is no normal transformer...this is a "resonant inductove coupler"...........its high science, schematics of which i am not invited to see....................maybe the R.I.C. has a current transformer at its output to buffer it from the led load?...what do you think?............i unfortunately do not know........i wish i did know, becasue when i am designing someting for a system, i like to know a bit about the system first.

as you know, i am trying to design a 50KHz phase cutter for the output of the R.I.C..so that the leds can be dimmed............and each individual R.I.C. has a different available current range

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Ahh there we go, it's utter BS. Why on Earth you're connected to the project remains a mystery.

Either iSoterra has done something really amazing with their coupling or they're scamming investors. Should I contact Mr. Marc Ottolini and ask?

Hello.
I was there for the other thread about this, so I guess I should chime in on this thread as well, while I have a few minutes.


(1) I believe that the OP is probably up to no good. At the least harmful end of the spectrum, he is lying about being an employ of isotera while using the forms to promote and produce a product with no intent to return just compensation. At the very worst, he is doing much the same, but he is not an employee, rather he is instead reversengenering a proprietary product to rip it off. In any case, unless this is legal, sanctioned, and the party of interest is going to donate a large "thank you" to ETO for helping engineer their products for them, I think this subject has got enough help and attention from us.

(2) I believe the isotera LED product is more or less genuine. The apparent glitch in the YouTube video can be explained by observing that the coupler is getting power from magnetic flux, not a typical metal-metal connection. Power certainly can be extracted from the flux of a single wire, provided both the current and coupling is very high, doing so simply forms a step-up transformer. The other point about the luminary being hooked up with only low power spring clamps can be explained if you assume the watts are coming from volts, more than amps. Then they do not need to be very heavy duty to do it this way. The modules say "50 watts max" on them, which isn't much.

(3) I do not believe the product is significant enough to warrant much enthusiasm. Yes, it can be used in wet and/or hazardous environments where conventional lighting could not. And that can be very useful. But there are many other options for this that are more mature technology and more of a commodity. Any other claimed advantages such as efficiency, durability, and economy are unsubstantiated at best.

(4) With (what I theorise are) minor modifications, the design could be a full fledged wireless lighting solution, requiring only proximity, not a "coupler". This would largely make the above product obsolete. Such products do exist.

(5) I am not associated with isotera in any way, shape, or form.

I'm feeling the reverse engineering thing too albeit without any actual skill involved.

I'm more baffled by the ability to get any real power out of that single wire coupling. I've seen current clamps but they're not 50W but more mW and as far as I know somewhat inefficient.

Bonus question. Show me a circuit, coil whatever that can pull 5V @ 10A off a single insulated wire running at 100V @ 51kHz, ??A in a box about the size of a human hand.

Has anyone here done the maths? We have 1.9A going through a twisted-pair of wires forming a distribution cable. What is the magnetic field around one of those wires? I guess piffling! So even if you had 100% coupling efficiency over, say, 10cm of wire the power drawn off via the magnetic field would be.....piffling . I don't see how 50W, yet alone 650W, is possible.

Yea, somethings very fishy. I went to iSotera's site and the site that claims to have done the evaluation for the investors. The more I read it the more it looks like an elaborate scam. Google anything about it and it's either press releases or a handful or boilerplate websites with zero actual information or independent reviews.

I've asked iSotera for an evaluation kit, I'm sure I'll never hear from them.

I've yet to figure out who was responsible for the £1.6m from the London Angel Investors. I'd be happy to send them off an email. I really think they're being scammed but I've no proof. As for the OP I can't figure him out at all.

Try Juice technology. It looks like they hold the patents and Isotera is a spin off.

Juice uses a "self sealing" contact system. Not the no contact system iSotera uses.
**broken link removed**

I can't find any connection between the two companies and see nothing odd about the Juice system.

What is the magnetic field around one of those wires? I guess piffling!

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the wire runs through ferrite, whose permeability allows a high density of flux....its not piffling

Flyback said:

the wire runs through ferrite, whose permeability allows a high density of flux....its not piffling

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You're talk through your hat.

Why are you defending iSotera since you're supposedly reviewing them? You don't even have any iSotera equipment to review, plus you're basing this on some dog and pony show held in London. Be skeptical and objective. Get yourself an evaluation kit from iSotera for starters (good luck with that).

ronv said:

Maybe something like this? I don't know.....

https://www.electro-tech-online.com/custompdfs/2013/07/FlatHCLV.pdf

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Well I'll be monkeys uncle. I've never seen that or heard of that. Flyback, iSotera and anyone else my apologies, turns out I was wrong. And Flyback I suggest you read that PDF thoroughly, it pretty much details the coupling. I couldn't figure out the efficiency but the current is there. They do seem to favor higher frequencies such as 250kHz.

It looks like iSotera may actually be the products name? But I don't really know or care too much.

As for the transformer, It's doable, but I don't expect it to really be all that efficient. The best way to do a transformer with low coupling is to have two tuned LC tanks, and transfer the power from the primary to the secondary over multiple cycles. As I understand this is the same fundamental concept the tesla coil works from.

I'm actually considering maybe trying my own take on something related some time soon. I have a bunch of super efficient true white backlight LED's that I bought awhile back to mod a laptop that I have yet to use. (Turned out the laptop has a bum northbridge and cannot be repaired without serious $$$.) Such LED's would probably be perfect for a scaled down prototype of this.




That all being said, I still don't have a lot of faith in this particular discussion about said mythical iSotera apparatus. Are we actually accomplishing anything here by debating this farther? Are we still wanting to know how/if it works? Do we not already know the most important points? Seems to me this has just about turned into mostly an ego game. I'm personally more interested in doing projects and science myself if I can help it. My ego is inflated more than enough as it is

mythical iSotera apparatus

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it is REAL hardware out there with REAL customers, ...NOW.

Isotera has NO ELECTRONICS AND NO ELECTROLYTIC capacitors in the bulb......all that is in the power hub which you can store in a cool place, or have a fan in it or blowing on to it, or the power hub can be mounted on the floor , low down, where its cooler......so isotera is the ONLY true LED lighting system which garantees >100,000 hour LED lamp longevity.

Add to that you can put any of the isotera lamps in a bucket of water, and that lamp will go out, but the other lamps on the same bus will STAY LIT..............show me any other system that can do that.....any voltage bus lighting system that gets any lamp shorted , well, it knocks out the whole bus....all the lamps go out.

So thats why isotera has one customer who uses it for lighting in remote places where lights might get drizzles of water on them from gaps in tents rooves etc.and yes that is a confidential customer that isotera cannot tell you about....................a confidential customer who goes into remote areas sometimes and wishes to set up remote command HQs where lighting is needed.and yes,, isotera is the only realistic system for them

Add to that that isotera is CONTACTLESS...so there are no contact sparks, so this is the only system in the world which is idea for lighting in explosive areas.

..........And stuff like street lights, where its a pain to replACE them....you dont want electrolytic caps in there and other electronics which is going to fail....you want an isotera system where the lamp has NO ELECTRONICS in it other than the LEDs.

Stop disagreeing it and go and see it where its installed, or go to led shows where you can see it yorself.

ISOTERA IS COMING TO YOU SOON.

There is simply no doubt.

show me any other system that can do that...

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My domestic mains system can do that. If I plug a desk lamp into a wall socket and someone is daft enough to put the lamp into a bucket of water the fuse in the plug may blow (so may the idiot with the bucket ) but the rest of the mains system stays active. WARNING: kiddies do not try this at home!!

51 KHZ and a ferrite core with a core area of 1 CM^2 can get you 5.7 volts per turn.
so for 50 watts you need about 10 amps of current at 51Khz flowing through that twisted pair wire.

Edit: just read the document located here:
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-find-publication-getPDF.pdf?PatentNo=GB2497428&DocType=A&JournalNumber=6473
and it appears the company is seriously looking at a transformer core that weighs 100 grams and is on the order of 600mm^2 core area.
the price of 100 grams of a custom ferrite core is probably more than the led's its driving.
a very heavy price to pay for convenience.

why not just loop the wire through the core 10 times?


as for figuring out OP, try here
**broken link removed**
and here
**broken link removed**

You still have not answered how having the whole lighting system for a house ran off of one central power unit is better being that if the circuit supplying power to the unit goes out the whole house lighting system goes out.

Same with what happens when the main power unit goes out? All the lights go with it and nothing works until a new power unit is put in making the whole house lighting dead until a replacement unit is installed!

Also what about the 51 Khz running through the lighting system at a moderate wattage?
Doesn't that give off a huge amount of RF noise and if not how are they keeping it from doing so?
Also wouldn't having a moderately powerful 51 Khz power signal going through a simple two strand wiring circuit have the potential to make itself into a rather effective induction heating power source if any metal such as a screw or framing nail is in the right proximity and orientation to any part of the wire

That does not sound like superior lighting tech to me by any means.

At least with my line powered CFL's, incandescents, and my one induction light (Very cool lighting tech BTW) if one power circuit trips only the lights on that circuit goes out and if the power pack for one bulb goes bad only that single bulb goes with it.

I've no idea why the OP is so gung-ho about the project. Now that I know it's possible it still doesn't seem necessary but instead adds complexity and cost.

Flyback said:

it is REAL hardware out there with REAL customers, ...NOW.

Isotera has NO ELECTRONICS AND NO ELECTROLYTIC capacitors in the bulb......all that is in the power hub which you can store in a cool place, or have a fan in it or blowing on to it, or the power hub can be mounted on the floor , low down, where its cooler......so isotera is the ONLY true LED lighting system which garantees >100,000 hour LED lamp longevity.

Add to that you can put any of the isotera lamps in a bucket of water, and that lamp will go out, but the other lamps on the same bus will STAY LIT..............show me any other system that can do that.....any voltage bus lighting system that gets any lamp shorted , well, it knocks out the whole bus....all the lamps go out.

So thats why isotera has one customer who uses it for lighting in remote places where lights might get drizzles of water on them from gaps in tents rooves etc.and yes that is a confidential customer that isotera cannot tell you about....................a confidential customer who goes into remote areas sometimes and wishes to set up remote command HQs where lighting is needed.and yes,, isotera is the only realistic system for them

Add to that that isotera is CONTACTLESS...so there are no contact sparks, so this is the only system in the world which is idea for lighting in explosive areas.

..........And stuff like street lights, where its a pain to replACE them....you dont want electrolytic caps in there and other electronics which is going to fail....you want an isotera system where the lamp has NO ELECTRONICS in it other than the LEDs.

Stop disagreeing it and go and see it where its installed, or go to led shows where you can see it yorself.

ISOTERA IS COMING TO YOU SOON.

There is simply no doubt.

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In my 30 plus years in the electronics profession I have often encountered jobs, tasks and/or locations that required special treatment. And it sounds like Isotera has a product that fills some special need. But that doesn't mean that those, often unique, circumstances apply to every situation. And to assume that, since a product that has advantages in specific applications, it is therefore the right product for all applications, well, while it might be a great marketing ploy, it is poor application engineering.

Besides, are the lighting systems already in place that water fragile? I think not. Contrary to what you see on TV or in movies, lighting systems don't go sparking away as soon as the fire sprinklers go off. A few drops, or even a spray, of water in a typical junction box won't cause a short. It takes a continuous path of water between electrified metal and grounded metal to do so. So, unless the junction, switch boxes, or fixtures have closed bottoms so that a pool of water will form, it won't create a short circuit.

An incandescent bulb will often shatter when hit by a drop of water, but that is because of the rapid change in temperature of the very hot glass envelope, not because of a water-electrical fault. I have no direct knowledge of whether a fluorescent tube would do the same. An LED lamp won't shatter, but that advantage will be the same regardless of how power is carried to the fixture.

As for electrolytic capacitors used in the electronics:
- Do the Isotera power hubs not use electrolytic caps?
- With the ever increasing frequency of todays switching power supplies, it's quite practical to do supplies with very few electrolytics. Often only the front end bulk cap. I just looked up what parts could be used there. A few manufacturers have parts with lifetime ratings of 10k to 12k hours at 105C. Even if the lights were on 24/7, that translates out to over 35 years at 55C. Over 100 years if the lights are on 10 hours a day, 6 days a week.

Do the Isotera power hubs not use electrolytic caps?

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yes but the power hub doesnt have to be in the ceiling space where its hottest

so for 50 watts you need about 10 amps of current at 51Khz flowing through that twisted pair wire.

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...no its 1.9A rms in the twisted pair wire...and that gives the 50W

Doesn't that give off a huge amount of RF noise and if not how are they keeping it from doing so?

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51KHz is not a frequency thats easy to make radiate without huge structures. (antennas)

WARNING: kiddies do not try this at home!!

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..do what you like with the isotera system, it wont electrocute you

over 35 years at 55C.

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....inside a led bulb containing an smps driver, and obviously the leds, its most likely to be much more than 55C

And it sounds like Isotera has a product that fills some special need.

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....Too right,,,just ask the special customer who's been using it for the last 2 years

My domestic mains system can do that. If I plug a desk lamp into a wall socket and someone is daft enough to put the lamp into a bucket of water the fuse in the plug may blow

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.....the blowing of that fuse is likely to trip the main breaker of the house...but i concede you can go and switch it back on

51KHz is not a frequency thats easy to make radiate without huge structures. (antennas)

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.....such as all that twisted pair distribution wiring? . Besides, it's harmonics of that 51kHz which could pose a problem.

due to the variable load placed on the main inverter, this is definitely an application requiring at least some kind of quasi resonant drive network, this could easily keep the harmonics below 500Khz. but its also really expensive VA wise, so you've got a lot of money burnt up in some high quality impedance transforming network...
unless you want to pwm an LCL filter at 500Khz?

and yes you're only going to get 5 volts per turn per square centimetre of core area. that is theoretically about 10 watts.
or 50 for 10 square centimetres of core area, explaining why you have a 100 gram ferrite core.