fuel batteries

[Hero999]

hm yes but I still say that to state that it take more energy to make them than they produce is absured, ok so cut the figure in 4 generous eh ? will it cost 10 MW of power to make a panel ?

I personally can't vouch for that, it's just something I've heard.

Having said that, think about how much energy is required to mine, transport and make the raw materials e.g. metal, semiconductors and plastic etc. from their mineral ores, for example electrolysis of aluminium takes huge amounts of electricity. Then there's transporting the solar panels to the whorehouses, then the shops and eventually to your house in your car or a delivery lorry.

 

[3v0]

In the US there are wind farms under construction in many areas because they are profitable. One near here had 150 1.5 Megawatt generators 6 months ago. They may be over 200 units by now. The noise and birds are not a big issue for them. There is maybe 1 occupied structure in 5-10 square miles. If the birds were a real problem the tree huggers would have stopped construction.

From what I know about solar cells I would have to say that they are not ready for prime time. (need more development).

In regards to the production of hydrogen from electricity. That too is an area where additional research may result in a more efficient process.

There are many things we take for granted today that were impossible only a few years ago.

 

[HarveyH42]

How much hydrogen does the Ford Fuel cell car consume per mile? How long will a fuel cell last? What kind of maintence is required, and how often? Some how I don't think it's just a matter of feeding it hydrogen.

 

[3v0]

From **broken link removed**

The plug-in hybrid is powered by a 336-volt lithium-ion battery pack at all times. The vehicle drives the first 25 miles each day on stored electricity alone, after which the fuel cell begins operating to keep the battery pack charged. This provides another 200 miles of range for a total of 225 miles with zero emissions. Individual experiences will vary widely and can stretch out the time between fill-ups to more than 400 miles: drivers with modest daily needs would need to refuel only rarely, drivers who travel less than 50 miles each day will see fuel economy well over 80 mpg, while those with long daily commutes will see somewhat lower numbers as the fuel cell must run a larger fraction of the time.

and

Certainly, many significant technical hurdles need to be overcome before a vehicle such as the Edge with HySeries Drive can become a reality. Fuel cell vehicles remain expensive, costing millions of dollars each. And the single biggest hurdle to plug-ins remains the cost of lithium-ion batteries. Much work also needs to be done to make fuel cells more durable and to create a hydrogen infrastructure.

 

[Sceadwian]

When saying zero emissions they always forget that it takes a polluting energy source to generate the energy in the first place, unless the entire setup is run from green generated hydrogen and electrical energy. Such a private setup for a home owner would be more costly to purchase and maintain than is practical. Not to mention the chemical and energy pollution required to simply create the devices and materials in the first place. They still have to work economic sanity and real value and practicality into a true green based econonmy. Oddly enough nowdays the Industries that do the polluting are finding it's actually cheaper to use more environmentally friendly energy sources, if for no other reason the recover what would otherwise be waste as usable energy in their own processes reducing their bottom line because of energy costs.

 

[3v0]

On a more realistic note there is a company in Denver Colorado that has been converting internal combustion engines to run on hydrogen. It has been a while since I looked at their offerings. They were only interested in fleet scale operations.

I recall that the Wankel engine is more suited to running on hydrogen then piston engines. I wonder if there has been any progress on that front.

 

[HarveyH42]

Thanks Steve... Okay, so the hydrogen tank holds 4.5 kg, and last somewhere between 200 and 400 miles. Now to figure out how much energy it would take to generate 4.5 kg, 350 bar of hydrogen. Then go to a solar power site, use their calculator, and get number/size panels.

Anyway, the Ford car isn't full hydrogen power, batteries still need to be plugged into a charger.

For my driving needs, probably would have to fill the hydrogen once a week. I think a modest size solar array could handle it. Unfortunately, the cost of replacing the batteries and fuel cell, would kill any hope of saving money. It's about reducing emmisions anyway, right?

 

[Sceadwian]

You have to take into account all the emissions from all the processes that were required to make the battery pack and all the other materials and devices in the vehicle as well. Actually quantifying the effects of a vehicles construction on the environment as well as it's running pollution is really undefined territory.

 

[HarveyH42]

I don't think there would be a major difference in manufacturing pollution. The lithium batteries would be a concern, don't think they are recycliable, probably a little toxic. Still think no emmissions, and a reduced dependency on fossil fuels a huge benefit

Funny thing, use less petroleum for fuel, but will most likey use more in plastics to build lightweight cars...

 

[dknguyen]

Funny thing, use less petroleum for fuel, but will most likey use more in plastics to build lightweight cars...

Well it does depend on how long you drive the car before replacing it. If you drive it for 5 or 10 years, the costs from saving fuel from driving a lighter car might outweigh the costs of fueling a heavier car over that period of time.

If you replace your car every year though, that's a different story.

 

[Thunderchild]

I personally can't vouch for that, it's just something I've heard.

Having said that, think about how much energy is required to mine, transport and make the raw materials e.g. metal, semiconductors and plastic etc. from their mineral ores, for example electrolysis of aluminium takes huge amounts of electricity. Then there's transporting the solar panels to the whorehouses, then the shops and eventually to your house in your car or a delivery lorry.

yes and how much energy to carry that precious petrol is used ? and once it is used it is used, petrol can be carried for thousands of miles before put to use

 

[Sceadwian]

What're we going to do when in 50 years all the improperly disposed of Lithium batteries start leeching into the ground water and the population at large is being accidentally medicated with a mood stabilizer en masse. Oh the irony.

 

[HarveyH42]

Lithium is used to treat bipolar disorders? If you aren't bipolar, will ingesting lithium make you one, or is that two or more?

 

[Thunderchild]

no actually I don't agree with the wide use of batteries another method needs to be used because also the batteries are so heavy it requires more power, it would be like a 50 litre petrol tank needing a 200 KG storage system

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

no actually I don't agree with the wide use of batteries another method needs to be used because also the batteries are so heavy it requires more power, it would be like a 50 litre petrol tank needing a 200 KG storage system

But can you find a more efficient and 'reasonably priced' system?.

 

[Sceadwian]

Lithium is a 'mood stabilizer' it's used for bipolar disorder because it's one of the few drugs that surpress both mania and depression. I've two friends that were on it at some point, neither had good things to say about it, mood supressor is a better term. Problem is it affects all emotions not just the one's associated with the disorder so it can drastically alter personality.

 

[Hero999]

I'm sure it's not just as simple as eating lithium. Lithium is a very reactive metal, it reacts with water and probably very violently with stomach acid. I imagine they use lithium salts or other compounds which won't react so violently.

 

[Sceadwian]

Funny, Lithium salts are exactly what the medical uses for Lithium are based on, and actually for a battery the entire reason they use Lithium in the first place is that it's highly reactive (and light) so in a power cell it's likley going to be in it's most reactive state, once that is released into the ground it's going to react, perhaps with something common like limestone to form a Lithium salt that would end up in ground water.

 

[Oznog]

I recall that the Wankel engine is more suited to running on hydrogen then piston engines. I wonder if there has been any progress on that front.

Not that I know of. Wankels don't rewrite the book on combustion or anything. In fact it seems like the lack of charge-cooling that you'd get with gasoline is bad news for the rotor.

Hydrogen in a combustion engine's such a bust. It just can't be stored in a useful density. Compressing it requires buttloads of energy and yields only a few lbs of hydrogen in moderate-sized tank which won't get you all that far. Crygenic refrigeration yields a more useful density, but requires pretty phenomenal amounts of energy as well as being difficult to store in a consumer setting.

A fuel cell gets many times the efficiency of ICE and electric drive trains are easy to use with regenerative braking. Hydrogen storage limitations are significantly less problematic since less mass is required for a practical range.

 

[Peter Trend]

Forget solar panels. The sun provides LOADS of power to the Earth, we just can't harness most of it with solar panels.
Solar furnaces are a completely different thing, because they use the infra-red radiation, concentrated to a small area with many hundreds of mirrors, that can then be used to melt salts to store the energy, boil water to drive turbines, or anything else that you can think of.

You lot should also read this:
"Infrared photovoltaic cells – which transform infrared light into electricity - are attracting much attention, as nearly half of the approximately 1000Wm3 of the intensity of sunlight is within the invisible infrared region. So it is possible to use the visible half for direct lighting while harvesting the invisible for generating electricity [3]. Photovoltaic cells that respond to infrared – ‘thermovoltaics’ - can even capture radiation from a fuel-fire emitter; and co-generation of electricity and heat are said to be quiet, reliable, clean and efficient. A 1 cm2 silicon cell in direct sunlight will generate about 0.01W, but an efficient infrared photovoltaic cell of equal size can produce theoretically 1W in a fuel-fired system." - https://www.i-sis.org.uk/QDAUESC.php