Hydroxy gas

[killivolt]

Hexavalent Chromium.

What the heck is this ? Is it only during a electro chemical bonding process and is just residue while making chrome.

They are suggesting it leaches into to the surrounding water during their formation of H2 or 2h2 or what ever.

kv

 

[Mr RB]

Lately I've been running into a disturbing amount of people who are believing this "water as fuel" concept here in Australia.

I have messed around with electrolysis and HHO a few times since the late 1970's when I first read about Yull Brown and his work to promote "oxy-hydrogen" as a usable gas that could be handled and stored safely without separating the gasses. I've built a number of electrolysis units and even blown one up once (ahem).

There is one basic fact that a lot of people need to have drummed into them;

Water is NOT a fuel...
Water is an energy storage medium.

Electrolysis adds energy to H2O and separates the bond to make oxygen and hydrogen. The when you burn it that EXACT SAME AMOUNT of energy is released as heat and it re-combines as water. Always. You put the energy in to break the molecular bond, and that SAME energy can then be released later. Thats it. Water is not a damn "fuel".

Now if any of you pro-HHO camp guys want to work with electrolysers there is valid research work to be done to improve the efficiency and high efficiency high longevity devices can be worth a lot of money to thei inventors.

My advice is to start small with an electrolyser, maybe 12v @ 2amps or 24 watts. Make sure you have decent quality ammeters and voltmeters so you can measure the actual amount of power you are feeding into the electrolyser. Its very easy to prove input power. Work with DC for all your initial testing, this is easy and will prove a base efficiency reference for later when you want to compare pulsating DC with your first tests.

Measuring the efficiency of your electrolyser is fairly easy. All waste energy is dissipated as heat. All other energy consumed is going into electrolysis. So "characterise" your electrolyser by suspending a resistor in the liquid and passing a known amount of power into the resistor (measure volts and amps) and measure the temperature rise of the electrolyser above ambient temperature. You will get a figure of 'C/watt.

Then run the electrolyser on DC with measured input power. By simply measuring the temp rise of the device you will know exactly how much waste heat is produced in the device, and with that simple thermomenter reading you instantly get a good idea of its efficiency. You dont even need to measure the output gas, although you can collect the gas and measure that too.

The main problems with electrolysers are plate corrosion and plate bubble fouling. Higher efficiencies require close plate separation and the bubbles that form on the plates reduce the percentage area of the plate in electrical contact with the liquid, reducing the effective plate area and reducing gas output. There are many possibilities to remove bubble fouling including plate treatment, liquid agitation and even some experiments in device resonance... Likewise electrolytic corrosion runs rampant and damages the surface of the plates which generally reduces output although in some materials this surface damage can cause an increase in total surface area. There is good work to be done in plate materials, surface treatments, plate shape and design etc.

And this whole idea of running HHO into your car engine? The math is pretty simple. 14v at 30 amps is 420 watts. Lets say you have a good electrolyser of 60% efficiency. Thats 420 x 0.6 = 252 watts of combustable, real gas energy. 252 watts is 1/3 of a hp. So there is a possible 1/3 hp gain. To generate the extra 30 amps with a typical alternator of 80% efficiency will drain 525 watts or 2/3 hp from the car engine.

I dont have any proof of car performance claims but I do know that running lean gasoline mixture and water vapor injection will both improve mileage. So it is possible these device improve gas mileage a bit as the car computer injects less gas and there is a definite water injection from the HHO. I also think a lot of the mileage gains are from the drivers new attention to mileage, you can get 20% better mileage easily by being aware of how far you push that pedal down.

Sorry for the long post, but it irks me when a legitimate exciting fuel like hydrogen, that deserves research, gets sidetracked and smeared by idiots and scammers trying to sell a lie about water itself being a fuel. Lets do some real research with real voltmeters and real ammeters - its not that hard people...

 

[Electric_EyE]

Mr. RB, thanks for the info, the ideas of a plate electrolyzer are pretty straight forward. Have you done any work with a coil type electrolzer, one that used electromagnetic wire and low frequency pulses to break the molecular bonds?

I've made an electrode with 316 SS, 12 plates 2"x12" .0625 thickness, gapped .045, alternate plus minus (no neutral plates). I've done about 3 tests with straight DC to measure water temp changes over time, current drawn, etc. Current appeared to go up as the water rose from room temp to 150 deg F. After the tests, the shine was gone from the surface of the plates. Also, I have 3/8" (.375") oxygen free (99.99%) solid copper connecting the electrode to the voltage source. I was wary at the time I made it because dissimilar metals usually have unwanted interreactions, but now I know this was a mistake because each time the water turned a reddish color. As I was looking on at all the bubbles, the reddish color appeared to be forming between the plates. At first I thought it may have been the impurities in the water maybe iron or rust, so I tried distilled water with same results. Now I realize the copper was attempting to deposit on the surface of the plates, like electroplating. This is why I believe the danger of hexavalent chromium. But maybe the danger will go away over time? Maybe the electrodes have to go through a time of tempering. Either way we should be careful of toxic waste.

My 2 cents about water "scammers": They are the ones making money. I don't think the majority of those that post on the subject have plans on making money. They seem to want to spend their time and money and their results freely with others for the good of the community. And all are not on the same level of progression as some of the geniuses out there with the background or the experience, hence the recycling of ideas. But hey if we weren't interested we wouldn't be reading this stuff right?

 

[ArrowHead]

There is one basic fact that a lot of people need to have drummed into them;

Water is NOT a fuel...

Yeah, sad, isn’t it? I even went so far as to suggest an experiment for someone who was pushing the issue on another forum:

Build a small campfire in your backyard, then dump a bucket of water on it. Tell me what happens.​

Electrolysis adds energy to H2O and separates the bond to make oxygen and hydrogen. The when you burn it that EXACT SAME AMOUNT of energy is released as heat and it re-combines as water. Always.

And that’s in a perfect world. In the real world, you lose energy as heat through the inefficiencies of the process.

And this whole idea of running HHO into your car engine? The math is pretty simple. 14v at 30 amps is 420 watts. Lets say you have a good electrolyser of 60% efficiency. Thats 420 x 0.6 = 252 watts of combustable, real gas energy. 252 watts is 1/3 of a hp. So there is a possible 1/3 hp gain. To generate the extra 30 amps with a typical alternator of 80% efficiency will drain 525 watts or 2/3 hp from the car engine.

Commentary: Good luck with this argument. From my experience with people who’ve been taken in by the water car scam, they don’t seem to understand how a generator or alternator works, period. They think that an alternator rated for x amps is always putting out x amps, and so if you’re only drawing 5A, the other (x-5)A is somehow being wasted to the void.

I also think a lot of the mileage gains are from the drivers new attention to mileage, you can get 20% better mileage easily by being aware of how far you push that pedal down.

Or, just plain confirmation bias: The driver tosses the logs that show he isn’t getting an improvement in fuel economy, and touts the ones that do. Or, he isn’t making any measurements at all and just feels as if he’s going to the pump less often.

Sorry for the long post, but it irks me when a legitimate exciting fuel like hydrogen, that deserves research, gets sidetracked and smeared by idiots and scammers trying to sell a lie about water itself being a fuel. Lets do some real research with real voltmeters and real ammeters - its not that hard people...

Agreed 100%. I’ve actually seen people call this scam a “hydrogen fuel cell”. I’ve had to correct them and tell them it’s an “electrolysis” cell, and that hydrogen fuel cells are something completely different and completely genuine.

ETA:
And here’s something else to think about before putting one of these bubble buckets in your car:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

 

[ArrowHead]

Oh, and here’s something else to think about before putting one of these bubble buckets in your car:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Yeah, sad, isn’t it? I even went so far as to suggest an experiment for someone who was pushing the issue on another forum:

Build a small campfire in your backyard, then dump a bucket of water on it. Tell me what happens.​

Try doing the same with a bucket of diesel, you will get the same effect!

NOT that I'm suggesting that water is in any way a fuel, just that it's not a very good demonstration.

 

[Electric_EyE]

Yeah, sad, isn’t it? I even went so far as to suggest an experiment for someone who was pushing the issue on another forum:

Build a small campfire in your backyard, then dump a bucket of water on it. Tell me what happens.​

https://youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I&feature=related

 

[ArrowHead]

Yeah, sad, isn’t it? I even went so far as to suggest an experiment for someone who was pushing the issue on another forum:

Build a small campfire in your backyard, then dump a bucket of water on it. Tell me what happens.​

https://youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I&feature=related

Strangest campfire I’ve ever seen!

 

[killivolt]

I really don't like doing this but...............

I really want to know if anyone can answer my Hexavalent question.


If the ppm ratio based on numbers of people and gallons of water will increase as more of these unit are built it has serious Health and Environmental Impact.

Because these HHO wana bees are not going to do anything but dump it out in gutters etc. Just like they did with waist oil before there was a law against it.

Now if you want to pay for waist removal after your HHO experiments and disposal which would need to be converted to a less damaging product or recycled ?

You shouldn't be selling a device much less teaching it to people who do not fully understand it's impact.

kv

 

[Electric_EyE]

People are going to experiment. They are going to learn whether they're taught or experiment. Responsibility needs to be taught about this stuff. I'm sure it could just be filtered and reused which is what I plan to do now that I know. A movie called Erin Brokovich was supposedly made to make people aware of the dangers of this specific chemical. I plan to watch it soon.

 

[killivolt]

Yes but.

People are going to experiment. They are going to learn whether they're taught or experiment. Responsibility needs to be taught about this stuff. I'm sure it could just be filtered and reused which is what I plan to do now that I know. A movie called Erin Brokovich was supposedly made to make people aware of the dangers of this specific chemical. I plan to watch it soon.

What your facing is not a filtering question. What your facing is Ignorance.

Common (Mr. Joe Average) is not thinking the way you do at all. Your putting to much confidence that it will all just work itself out. Mr. Joe Average will just think it's just me how much if any impact will I have on the Environment.

What is not considered here is that there are thousands of such people plus you have the net to exploit and promote the idea. If the 80-20 principle is applied you would get an extraordinary number.

Try this if 80% of the people who do 20% of the work in any known group you get this.

20% of the people creating in reverse 80% of the work.

So, 10,000 people out of which you have 2,000 what are they doing well there watching your video's and creating these things without fully understanding that he is going to promote the idea to his friend who by the way is in the 80% category times that by let's say four friends 8,000 people unaware of the consequences or just don't give a damn.

So, now it has become popular to do it over time your number begins to grow in the amount of people willing to do it. Now it has just climbed as prices go higher at the pump. 8,000 plus time plus unknown amount of popularity.

Let's install congress who has to step in and begin the process of filtering the idiot's out and demanding that there be some sort of law against such disposal.

But not without the impact studies and environmental studies plus increase health cost.

Your talking to a down winder from the Nuclear Fallout Test's performed without this same knowledge. I live with damaged DNA and an Immune System disorders. All proven as Fact to be caused from Environmental Toxicity from this and other Chemicals that have leached there way into the ground water and air.

So you are only one out of 9 people. And the only other one of you are going to get it who represent the 20%.

But the other 8 or 80% will never get it or even care.

kv

 

[chemelec]

Well I am not convinced that Electrolysis using Stainless steel Plates Actually Creates this Hexavalant Gas.

Anyone can Write and Post Anything on the Internet. TRUE OR NOT!

But than, What about all the Stainless steel that goes into Landfills.

Electrolysis is also a Natural Process that can occur when two dissimular metals touch each other in the presence of water.

But Who Says: You Must use Stainless steel for Electrolysis?
Solid Nickel or Good Nickel plated Copper Electrode would be better.
Carbon Rods Work and so do Many other metals.

I really want to know if anyone can answer my Hexavalent question.


If the ppm ratio based on numbers of people and gallons of water will increase as more of these unit are built it has serious Health and Environmental Impact.

Because these HHO wana bees are not going to do anything but dump it out in gutters etc. Just like they did with waist oil before there was a law against it.

Now if you want to pay for waist removal after your HHO experiments and disposal which would need to be converted to a less damaging product or recycled ?

You shouldn't be selling a device much less teaching it to people who do not fully understand it's impact.

kv

 

[killivolt]

Copper sulfate.

Well I am not convinced that Electrolysis using Stainless steel Plates Actually Creates this Hexavalant Gas.

Anyone can Write and Post Anything on the Internet. TRUE OR NOT!

But than, What about all the Stainless steel that goes into Landfills.

Electrolysis is also a Natural Process that can occur when two dissimular metals touch each other in the presence of water.

But Who Says: You Must use Stainless steel for Electrolysis?
Solid Nickel or Good Nickel plated Copper Electrode would be better.
Carbon Rods Work and so do Many other metals.

Copper Sulfate is even worse. Copper and electrolysis not good either I am aware of electrolysis and it's natural occurrence.

Truth, there is nothing but silver that is supposed to be the only metal non-toxic to the human body but there is a limit to all things.

But alas Silver is much to softly bound to be able to withstand this process.

But then, What about all the Stainless steel that goes into Landfills.

What about them it's not going to address someone purposely creating a colloidal form and then pouring the substance down a drain into water systems ?

You begin to have a lot of trouble when you put these people in a place of responsibility without measuring it's long term effects. And these are what we want to address.

If education and penalty's are in place that might dramatically reduce the numbers and create more commerce related to this if it has any promise at all.

But balancing such cost may out way the production or the benefits overall.

kv

 

[Conrad_Turbo]

Electrolysis is also a Natural Process that can occur when two dissimular metals touch each other in the presence of water.

The correct term is Galvanic corrosion.

Maybe the electrodes have to go through a time of tempering.

Please read up what tempering is...or click here: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...empering&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

Throwing out random terms does a lot to one's credibility.

I hope I didn't piss on your sorry little ego big company owner.

As for that comment...I never brought up any of my background in this thread until you asked. Obviously you didn't like my answer? Either way I was answering a question which was asked, which you cannot seem to do the same.

and exactly what are you qualifications?

Now your turn...

You conviently missed something.

 

[Electric_EyE]

What exactly is the point of your nitpicking words mr. turbo? Are you trying to impress us? or are you practicing for a degree in grammar? Your inability to grasp concepts is quite annoying actually.

 

[ArrowHead]

What exactly is the point of your nitpicking words mr. turbo? Are you trying to impress us? or are you practicing for a degree in grammar? Your inability to grasp concepts is quite annoying actually.

Get serious or get the @#$% out. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one who’s sick of your inane rhetoric.

So, let’s try this again:
What are your credentials?

 

[Electric_EyE]

You are another piece of work. Stick to the topic at hand. I'm sick of alot of things, but I don't get all personal and try to tear a person down, it's called hijacking a thread and is off topic. If you don't have anything good to say about someone, then don't say it.

 

[mneary]

You are another piece of work. Stick to the topic at hand. I'm sick of alot of things, but I don't get all personal and try to tear a person down, it's called hijacking a thread and is off topic. If you don't have anything good to say about someone, then don't say it.

Having demanded, received, and insulted another member's qualifications; it would only seem fair for you to also reveal your expert status.

 

[Electric_EyE]

I have no secret knowledge. I do have questions and I have ideas to put these HHO electrodes into a more predictable electrical circuit, i.e. submersed coils which right now I am very interested in. I think they would have a more predictable nature than concentric pipe or flat plates similar to your typical car battery.

I could give you all my biography way down to my HS science fair. I don't care and you dont care about my credentials. It is all in the here and now. I am here only to replicate ideas and to share likewise.

I could tell you: I was into audio sampling back in 1987. A simple memory counter and a simple 8 bit ADC/DAC timed together under control of a commodore 64 also a 4bit (4, 5% resistors multiplexed greyscale for 16 shades) video card with a 6845(or was it a 6545?) video chip to display the waveforms. I used the C-64 to stand in as a simulated rom OS with a chunk of shared RAM, programmed with 6502 assembly... That was back in the old days and since then, I've chosen to pursue the automotive field, and fell way behind in electronics.

I don't know transistor biasing, I sure as hell don't know JFETs or powerFET's. I do understand the basic if not more complicated theories related to PWM... The reason I chose to stay away from an ["office", translate white collar] job is because of the same BS I've seen in High School. cliques all over again, us versus them, instead of the best minds coming together... Go ahead and tear my post apart, it's your right

BTW ass, an insult given should be an insult expected. Now you show me your credentials or are you two one in the same huh? easy enough right?

 

[mneary]

BTW ass, an insult given should be an insult expected.

Thank you for your honesty.
Insults and ad hominem attacks aren't a technical discussion.

I claim no technical expertise on this subject. My query was aimed at fairness.