Performance Electric cars

[tcmtech]

Who do you think controls the politicians over there? Congressmen are just puppets on a string in the US.

It's not as perfect of buddy buddy systems as you paint it out to be.

With the oil field here in my state I get to hear a lot of first hand accounts of how irrational unfounded and outright wrong government regulations hinder the oil industries far more than they help them.

Every week there is a new regulation or requirement that pushes up the oil industry's operating costs while slowing down production due to new rules being made by the government that have zero rational logic or relation to what they are affecting. All they do is create more headaches and financial hoops for everyone to jump through.

Yes the government is largely puppets on strings but the oil industry is not the one who has control of those strings. Around here its clear those strings are controlled by tree hugging half wits who have no working factual scientifically based knowledge of the very things they get pushed through into law.

Just ask our idiot president and his buddies who have openly admitted that he wants to push the costs of fuel and electricity up to insane levels but not let the actual industries that produce them have any gain in their take on the added costs. Basically the government's goal is to push the prices to 3 - 4 times what they are now but keep the producers cuts where they are so that they government can get $8 - $10 in taxes on every gallon of fuel you buy while the oil industry would still only get what they are getting now.

Same goal with electrical production. The producers get to make 5 -10 cents a KWH but the government taxes it to 50 cents to a $1+ a KWH.

 

[tcmtech]

most heavy plant uses a diesel engine for it's motive power, those that use hydraulic motive power only do 2-3 mph.

Actually hydrostatic drive tech has come a long way in the lat 50 years. A considerable amount of heavy farming machinery is now full hydrostatic drive for all most all of the heavy power load work. A lot of farm tractors now have more engine power dedicated to their hydraulics output systems and ground drive than they do tho their PTO shaft.

Speed wise the majority of the new RTV's, Rough Terrain Vehicles, (Those big four wheelers with cabs) are all hydraulic over gear drive and they can easily do 30 - 50 MPH!

AS hydrostatic drive in the automotive industry goes its much like the electric drive tech is which is about 30+ years behind the times in relation to where the heavy commercial and industrial application tech is.

 

[misterT]

Electric motors are very efficient compared to other alternatives. Large ships, cruise ships and cargo ships, use diesel motors to make electricity and the ships propeller motors are electric.
This has three benefits:
1) The ship needs electricity anyway
2) The diesel motors can be run at their maximum efficiency point. Extra energy (electricity) is stored and used when necessary.
3) Electric power is very easy to distribute around compared to mechanical (and hydraulic) power.

 

[a tech]

Electric motors are very efficient compared to other alternatives. Large ships, cruise ships and cargo ships, use diesel motors to make electricity and the ships propeller motors are electric.
This has three benefits:
1) The ship needs electricity anyway
2) The diesel motors can be run at their maximum efficiency point. Extra energy (electricity) is stored and used when necessary.
3) Electric power is very easy to distribute around compared to mechanical (and hydraulic) power.

Hi mister T

Not to mention diesel electric locomotives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel-electric_transmission
And huge mining trucks: same link as above.

Regards,
tvtech

 

[JimB]

OK, lets have a look at an hydraulic machine used for felling timber.

This is its hydraulic pump, driven by a 200HP diesel engine. The pump is far smaller than the engine, hydraulics have a much higher "power density" (for want of a better word) than IC engines or electric motors.

And the tool which cuts the tree, strips the branches, and cuts the tree trunk into logs of the required size.

No problem there in distributing the hydraulic power where it is required, you just need the right flexible hose.
I cannot remember what pressure this lot worked at, probably 207 Bar (3000 psi in old money!).

JimB

 

[a tech]

LOL, that's why I love you Guys and ETO...

Started out as a performance electric car thread...and has evolved into a tree cutting, slow moving, non electric, hydraulic kind of thread. Where diesel electric and ships and everything are being discussed....all except performance electric cars

Personally, I LOVE IT. At least we are all trying to talk again and have a bit of fun.

Thanks Guys

tvtech

 

[tcmtech]

For very high power propulsion systems electric drive is more efficient and reliable than hydrostatic.

For normal daily driver commute vehicles they fall into a power range that is about a break even on either design.

 

[steveB]

My John Deere tractor runs completely on hydrostatic drive for both moving the tractor and operating the front loader. Of course, the power comes from a diesel engine, but the transmission is hydraulic based and works very well. Only the power take off for implements is powered directly from the engine.

I don't think it is far fetched to imagine a car operated in this way, but I have to think that electric motors are a better choice in terms of efficiency and controllability for automobiles.

It's interesting that the Navy is replacing their steam catapults with an all electric system based on motors and generators. The benefits are greater power and better controllability which translates to heavy aircraft that can be launched and longer lifetime and better reliability for the aircraft due to lower launch stresses. LOL, a tech I threw that one in there for you. hahaha

 

[rc3po]

For moving heavy things slowly, and with no regard to efficiency, it's excellent - and has it's place.

However, it would be absolutely useless for a car - have you ever driven an hydraulically powered vehicle? - aircraft aren't powered in that way, and most heavy plant uses a diesel engine for it's motive power, those that use hydraulic motive power only do 2-3 mph.

Well I'm no expert on the matter. I was just making the suggestion. It's pretty amazing what fluid pressure can do.

 

[rc3po]

My John Deere tractor runs completely on hydrostatic drive for both moving the tractor and operating the front loader. Of course, the power comes from a diesel engine, but the transmission is hydraulic based and works very well. Only the power take off for implements is powered directly from the engine.

I don't think it is far fetched to imagine a car operated in this way, but I have to think that electric motors are a better choice in terms of efficiency and controllability for automobiles.

It's interesting that the Navy is replacing their steam catapults with an all electric system based on motors and generators. The benefits are greater power and better controllability which translates to heavy aircraft that can be launched and longer lifetime and better reliability for the aircraft due to lower launch stresses. LOL, a tech I threw that one in there for you. hahaha

You are probably correct. I didn't know about the Navy changing the catapult to electric, thanks for the info. Also not using steam will cut down on corrosion issues.

 

[Ian Rogers]

@atech Back to your original topic...

I was talking to a guy yesterday who had to get rid of his electric car... Actually it was a hybrid.. Apparently the maintenance was far more costly than conventional cars... He was fine with the performance and how quiet it runs, but the power invertor units ( can't remember his exact words) were very costly and packed up regularly..

Will that come into performance??

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I was talking to a guy yesterday who had to get rid of his electric car... Actually it was a hybrid.. Apparently the maintenance was far more costly than conventional cars... He was fine with the performance and how quiet it runs, but the power invertor units ( can't remember his exact words) were very costly and packed up regularly..

The bosses son at work has had a number of Lexus hybrids (which is how I've come to drive them), never had any problems in that way.

But as he usually buys them as insurance write-offs and has them repaired, he bought one that had been in a parking garage in London when it got flooded, and the batteries and electronics were all submerged in water.

This obviously required the electronics replacing, which was pretty expensive - to make matters worse the local Toyota dealer said it all comes in one unit complete with batteries, so they ordered it for him. When we received it, it was a casing of batteries only, no electronics - so we got back on to them and they admitted their mistake. They didn't want to take the batteries back, so provided all the electronics free as long as he kept the new batteries

Incidentally, there's 320V of batteries in them

The first one he bought, none of us understood it - and he couldn't get it to start - turn the key, nothing happened. Anyway, we kept trying, and were all stood around it in the yard (no one inside) when all of a sudden it just started, all on it's own - obviously it was 'running' on battery power, and the engine only fired up as it got low.

But obviously, you're adding a great deal more complexity to a car making it a hybrid, so maintenance costs are likely to be higher.

 

[tcmtech]

But obviously, you're adding a great deal more complexity to a car making it a hybrid, so maintenance costs are likely to be higher.

To me that unnecessary over complication is my #1 peeve with the new EV and hybrid tech. Compared to their industrial counterparts way too much tech is being put in that serves no positive purpose towards the end product.

Every time I start reading up on a some new EV or hybrid vehicle coming out I see the specs and design layout for the drive systems and I can't help but think WTF are they doing? Industrial electric and hybrid drive does not use this overly complicated approach and are thusly well known and proven for being extremely reliable even when used in conditions that a typical persons daily commuter/grocery getter vehicle would consider extreme environments and abuse.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Every time I start reading up on a some new EV or hybrid vehicle coming out I see the specs and design layout for the drive systems and I can't help but think WTF are they doing? Industrial electric and hybrid drive does not use this overly complicated approach and are thusly well known and proven for being extremely reliable even when used in conditions that a typical persons daily commuter/grocery getter vehicle would consider extreme environments and abuse.

Completely different solutions to completely different problems - industrial solutions would be useless for a car.

 

[steveB]

Keep in mind how long it took for cars to become as reliable as they are now. In the old days, cars were much simpler, but still not all that reliable. With modern approaches, even very complex systems can be made reliable, but it takes time on the engineering side to work out problems that are found on the road.

We haven't mentioned it here, but the real problem is not so much the battery capacity, but the time it takes to charge the batteries. If you could charge the batteries in a few minutes (comparable to filling a gas tank), the lower range would not be a big issue because you just need to stop more often to "fill up". But, batteries take hours to charge from a socket, which is why I think an internal combustion engine is a good thing to have for continuous charging for long trips. Perhaps another solution is to have removable battery modules. Then instead of going to the station to fill up gas, you go there to swap your batteries. Companies could charge for the rental of batteries and for the energy used. The car owner would not even need to get the batteries when he purchases the car.

Anyway, we are starting the process of a major evolutionary change in automobile design and it is not all that clear exactly where we may end up. Also, I think it is strange that someone like myself, who does not know all that much about car design, and the mechanical engineering side of automobiles, may be somewhat of an expert on car technology once this evolutionary step is complete.

 

[tcmtech]

Completely different solutions to completely different problems - industrial solutions would be useless for a car.

How do you figure that?

The industrial hybrid engine over electric drivetrain tech is well designed and proven technology that's been around for decades now. It's well proven to be rugged, highly efficient, and cost effective.

Whats wrong with having the companies that design that sort of equipment make a less robust but by normal automotive applications still highly reliable and cost effective hybrid drive system?

From what I have seen over the years the #1 systems that the DIY EV and hybrid drive people go after is off the shelf electric forklift systems. Pretty much everything is plug and play lus even when modified to run at power levels 2 - 3 times what they were designed for in forklift work applications the systems still out last the experimenters vehicles.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

How do you figure that?

The industrial hybrid engine over electric drivetrain tech is well designed and proven technology that's been around for decades now. It's well proven to be rugged, highly efficient, and cost effective.

Small, light, fast, efficient - things that don't really apply in industrial versions.

 

[tcmtech]

Small, light, fast, efficient - things that don't really apply in industrial versions.

How do you figure that? The entire power control system for my old Ford Electrica that ran up to 400 amps on a 96 volt system (~45 motor HP) was the size of a toaster including it's heatsinks and that was based on early 1980's electronics tech.

With todays high power mosfet and IGBT systems they can easily put 5 times that much power through a similar sized control unit and have it last for over 10K running hours of service life in the worst type of conditions.

As far as drive train efficiency goes industrial applications are fussier about overall system efficiency than any of our auto manufactures ever were. Maximum production for least operating cost, least service, and greatest working life are at the top of the list.

Here is a perfect example of modern EV/Electric forklift controller tech. 144 VDC @ 1000 amps (~190 HP) all self contained in a 16" x 11" x 6" box!

https://www.fsip.biz/Documents/EVT1000 Manual.pdf

 

[tvtech]

Hi Nigel

I had an irritating little pest of an animal that refused to go away. No matter how many times it was thumped on the head.
It irritated everyone because it thought it was clever. And bit people all the time. Nasty, vindictive little critter.

It got to the stage where I could not even give it away.

One morning....all on it's own, it left. I felt sad for it as it simply went away. I never found it again and never even really bothered to look for it.

I felt sorry for it that it did not even bother to bite the hand that fed it.

It just went away and never bothered with even a bite. It probably realized it had screwed up and decided to go away.

Sad story. I know humans like that too.

And so do you.

Regards,
tvtech

 

[tcmtech]

Sounds like you have not given up your grudge yet tvtech?

If you and mickster want to step into the ring and go few rounds with me just let EM know and I will be happy to oblige the both of you otherwise I suggest leaving the nasty little critters sleep. A lot more went on behind closed doors than either of you are aware of.