Stanley Meyers and Zero-Point energy

[rwahrens]

Why do you suppose he would be fiddling with a windmill if he already had a Bessler wheel?

 

[rwahrens]

The real entertainment value of the Bessler Wheel is reading some of the associated forums. The concept seems to keep a lot of ignorant people busy. My hope is by occupying themselves with this sort of thing, they won't have time to run for Congress.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

The real entertainment value of the Bessler Wheel is reading some of the associated forums. The concept seems to keep a lot of ignorant people busy. My hope is by occupying themselves with this sort of thing, they won't have time to run for Congress.

Unfortunately this means the even more ignorant ones run for Congress instead!

 

[arrie]

Does your head hurt arrie ?



kv

It's like ground hog day, over and over againIt really hurts after a while, just like walking into the path of a bus over and over again.
So much

 

[3v0]

Unfortunately this means the even more ignorant ones run for Congress instead!

I am not so much ignorant as evil, self centered, corrupt, power hungry....

 

[arrie]

Blueteeth,

Religious faith dictates that you do not doubt the party line.

That is very different from science where people are encouraged to prove existing theories wrong. And rewarded for it.

In a good science class you will have a lab. do experiments. In religion experiments are frowned upon. Testing God, yeah you betcha... thats not going to happen.

I agree with you regarding the useless posts on the alternate energy forum specifically.

Personally I would be glad to help most anyone build a better mousetrap. Even if I do NOT buy into it. But at best they seem to be making poor copies of questionable devices that they do not understand.

As a matter of fact, there is one thing that you can test God on.
Wonder if anyone here have tried it. I have not really - lack of faith maybe.

 

[rwahrens]

Here is link to a fascinating website dealing with both religion & science. I particularly like the free airconditioning and heating pages. This is what happens when a nuclear physicist becomes an ordained minister.

Warning: This site has been a real time-killer for me.

https://mb-soft.com/

 

[philba]

The free heating thing is actually an interesting idea though the guy goes on and on instead of presenting the actual idea in the first page or so. It's not a new idea - for example, people have been using the decomposition of manure to heat cold frames for a long time now. However, it's probably impractical for most people (it's a lot of work, needs larger areas than a furnace and the smell can get pretty strong). You do get lots of nice compost for gardening, though.

 

[blueroomelectronics]

What's wrong with Solar, Wind or Thermal energy. These are all available, not magic and can power lights, motors etc... Colleges and Universities are often running solar car competitions looking for the better ideas and more efficient methods of collecting and harnessing available "free" energy.

 

[audioguru]

Solar powered cars were having a race and the wind flipped one over because it was flat like a wing and light weight.

 

[bryan1]

As a matter of fact, there is one thing that you can test God on.

Does it exist I think it's all in the mind like this post

 

[Hero999]

Oh No...

not this topic again....

I often enjoy responding to these sorts of threads. I feel that I am doing good by educatiog someone who obviously doesn't know much about the laws of physics and engineering.

 

[rwahrens]

The free heating thing is actually an interesting idea though the guy goes on and on instead of presenting the actual idea in the first page or so. It's not a new idea - for example, people have been using the decomposition of manure to heat cold frames for a long time now. However, it's probably impractical for most people (it's a lot of work, needs larger areas than a furnace and the smell can get pretty strong). You do get lots of nice compost for gardening, though.

Yeah, he rambles and repeats quite a bit, but at least it appears he has done the math and built a prototype. Here in the midwest, some livestock confinefment buildings have a thick layer of straw or crop residue underneath to generate heat. The pigs don't mind the smell. This web site takes the concept from passive heat generation to a move active design. The heater I like is the HG-3a. https://mb-soft.com/public3/globalzl.html. It mechanically tumbles and has air injection and a heat exchanger. He claims to get 90,000 BTU/hour at temps up to 150 degrees f. in a fairly small volume. He says it leaves almost no residue, so nothing left for the garden. It looks like he put it in a spare room in his house. He must be single.

 

[philba]

He must be single

... and not dating either. I can see it now - "hey baby, wanna come over? I'll cook you a meal on my digester".

I looked at that design and don't see how he gets that much heat from that small volume. If he did get 150F, wouldn't that kill the micro-organisms that it relies on? Also, the comment about almost no residue is hard to believe. I'd like to see a volume comparison vs the same starting volume but burned to ash. It's got to be significantly higher. Probably the biggest drawback (which makes it impractical) is the need to load and unload the machine. You'd need a bank of them to keep the heat going

 

[rwahrens]

... and not dating either. I can see it now - "hey baby, wanna come over? I'll cook you a meal on my digester".

I looked at that design and don't see how he gets that much heat from that small volume. If he did get 150F, wouldn't that kill the micro-organisms that it relies on? Also, the comment about almost no residue is hard to believe. I'd like to see a volume comparison vs the same starting volume but burned to ash. It's got to be significantly higher. Probably the biggest drawback (which makes it impractical) is the need to load and unload the machine. You'd need a bank of them to keep the heat going

Killing the microbes is what limits the heat to 150F. He claims that there are two types of bacteria involved; one type dies off at about 130F, the other (thermophilic I think) are much more active and kick in for the higher temps. I guessing the high temp type never become too active in a typical compost pile, since the temperature doesn't get that high. That might also explain why there is compost left, instead of all decomposing.

Ash from clean organics runs in the range of .5% (clean dry hardwood) up to 6 or 7% (straw) by weight. Much of the ash in a wood stove comes from dirt and other contaminates in the bark, etc. For each hundred pounds of input, there would be .5 to 7 pounds of ash -- not very much really.

If the information on this site is accurate, loading is a problem, unloading not so much. Loading could be automated fairly easily I think. A continuous rather than a batch process would also even out the highs and lows in the heat output.

I would love to try this, but already have more projects than I can handle. Besides, I do have a wife.

 

[HarveyH42]

Personally, I'd rather see the Alternative Energy forum be restricted to the actual usable systems. These unproven schemes should be in ****-chat. I respect that people can get hooked on ideas. Ever since high school, I was a huge fan of the works of Nikola Tesla. I was amazed with all the stuff he built, with what was available at the time. Kind of lost interest, when most discussions of Tesla always seemed to get turn to the "free energy" crap. Never read anything in the Tesla books about getting energy from nothing. Tesla's free energy scheme was to provide power freely to the consumer, but it still needed to be generated and transmitted. The blinding effect of "free".

 

[3v0]

Personally, I'd rather see the Alternative Energy forum be restricted to the actual usable systems. These unproven schemes should be in ****-chat. ....

I totaly agree.

I would have settled at 'plain jane' agreement but the posting thingy wanted more test. So here it is in all its glory.

3v0

 

[rjvh]

Hydrogen Generator
Detailed illustrated plans Download E-book, only $16.95
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"WaterCar" Conversion Kit
Don't Buy "WaterFuel" Guides Until You Read This Special Review !
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Now How ironic is this, these are the adds above the first page of this thread, does that impliment that the general feeling is suportive of these ideas around here???

Robert-Jan

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Hydrogen Generator
Detailed illustrated plans Download E-book, only $16.95
www.goodideacreative.com

"WaterCar" Conversion Kit
Don't Buy "WaterFuel" Guides Until You Read This Special Review !
www.TopBuyReviews.com

Now How ironic is this, these are the adds above the first page of this thread, does that impliment that the general feeling is suportive of these ideas around here???

The ads are put there by google, based on the content of the page you're viewing - quite possibly it's the sole reason for such a perculiar post in the first place?.

 

[HawkNo1]

It's been said that Stanley Meyer's invention which split water into hydrogen and oxygen on demand violates the second law of thermodynamics.

"Scientists' current understanding of the universe and all its particles and forces is called the Standard Model and is now over 35 years old. It does not explain why some particles, such as protons, are relatively heavy, while others, like photons, have no mass at all. In a theory that dates to the early 1960s, a British physicist named Peter Higgs sugessted that there was a mechanism - alternatively described as a field, boson, a particle, a whaddayacallit - that makes some things heavy and other things lite."

What do the detectors do?
"They will also look for "dark matter" believed to make up most of the universe, antimatter that mirrors all known matter, and the elusive Higgs-boson particle - sometimes called the "God particle", because is is believed to give mass to all other particles."

William Booth, Washigton Post, on the (LHC) Large Hadron Collider built near Geneva Switzerland and now in the testing phase.

The second law of thermodynamics only applies to linear systems and the behavior of the particles involved are based on the Standard Model, which is incomplete.

John Archibald Wheeler who just died recently, worked on the Manhattan Project (Atom bomb) and Matterhorn project (Hydrogen bomb) and was first to coin the phrases, blackhole and wormhole.)

"Then however, I discovered the two chapters of Misner, Thorne and Wheelers's "Gravitation" that in quantum mechnics there existed an all-pervading energy imbedded in the fabric of space consisting of fluctions of electricity. It was called the zero-point energy. Zero-Point energy refers to absolute zero degrees Kelvin. Wheeler's "Geometrodynamics" showed that the energy density was enormous: 10^93grams/cm^3. Quantum mechanics showed that this energy was constantly interacting with matter and elementary particles in what what is called vacuum polarization."

"Modern physics may allow the posibility of tapping energy out of the fabric of space. While studying physics as a graduate student, I ran into a most interesting set of papers.[1-8] they stated that totally empty space was filled with fluctuating energy. As as engineer caught in an energy crisis, two questions arose. Was energy really there and, is so, could it be tapped as a source? I talked with many scientists on this matter and discovered a remarkable thing: Most did not believe this energy existed. However I did run into some physicists who were already familiar with the concept. When I asked them, "Why can't this energy be tapped?" the reply was, "It would violate the second law of thermodynamics, the law of entropy. Random fluctions must forever remain random." To them, there was no way to influence this energy.
Then I discovered the work of Dr. Timothy Boyer who showed that matter influenced this fluctuating energy. And recently, I discovered the work of Dr. Ilya Prigogine, the 1977 Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, who expanded the second law of thermodynamics to show how certain systems may evolve from randomness toward order. Combining their work opens up the possibility, in principle that the fluctuating energy of space may be cohered into a source."

"The recent work of work of Procaccia clarifies the second law of thermodynamics. He demonstrates that nonlinear systems under certain conditions may evolve toward macroscopic order. A simple example of this thesis is the rectifier circuit ( Figure 1). Here thermal noise from the resistor is channeled through the one-way valve of the diode to charge up the capacitor. This, energy in a random state (thermal noise) is channeled to produce energy that can be used for work (charged capacitor)."

"Since a nonlinear system does not exhibit linear superposition, a combination of inputs often produces suprising, synergistic effects--the whole becomes greater than the sum of its parts. A striking example of this comes from the field of plasma physics. When sufficient energy (e.g. an electric impulse) is added to a gas, it ionizes into plasma. If more energy is added, the electric charge undergoes violent, random, turbulent motion. If still more energy is added, a surprising thing can sometimes occur:
The violent turblent plasma forms up into a meta-stable vortex ring called a plasmoid.[11-13] Figure 2 is a cross-section diagram of the current flow in the plasmoid. Such a structure cannot be predicted by a linear thermodynamic model, but can be predicted by a nonlinear magnetohydrodynamic model. the nonlinear interactions produce macroscopic coherence form random turblence. This plasmoid vortex ring may produce a cohering resonance with the zero-point energy as the zero-point energy interacts with the plasmoid. This interaction occurs in a nonlinear system evolving toward meta-stable order. Could the plasmoid slightly cohere the zer-point energy by vacuum polarization so that it provides tha energy fux needed to maintain the system? Are ther any examples in nature that imply such a thing could occur? Ball lightning has been modeled as a vortex ring plasmoid[15,16] and its suprising persistence implies it is interacting with some source of energy."

Tapping Zero Point Energy
ISBN: 0-931882-00-2
Moray B. King

REFERENCES

ETHER, ZERO POINT ENERGY

1. M. Rutherfer, "Neutrino Structure of Ether." Lett. Il Nuovo Cimento 13, No. 1, 9 (1975)
This paper references various Lorentz invariant ether thories.

2. H. C. Dudley, The Morality of nuclear Planning, Kronos Press (1976), Glassboro, NJ 08208
This monograph describes a neutrino ether and its relation to radioactivity. Also "Is There an Ether"", Science Digest, (May 15,1975).

3. G. Gamow, Thirty Years that Shook Physics, Doubleday, NY (1966)
This text contains a simple description of Dirac's vitural pair vacuum.

4. C. Misner, K. Thorne, and J. Wheeler, Graviation, W.H. Freeman and Co. (1970)
Chapters 43 and 44 contain description of zero-point fluctuations and superspace. Also John Archibald Wheeler, Geometrodynamics,
Academic Press Inc. (1962) describes vacuum fluctuations and wormholes.

5. T.H. Boyer, "Random Electrodynamics: The Theory of Classical Electrodynamics with Classical Electromagnetic Zero-Point Radiation." Phys. rev. D11, No. 4 790 (1975)

6. M.O. Scully, M. Sargent, "The Concept of the Photon." Physics Today, 38, (March 1972)

7. E. G. Harris, A Pedestrian Approach to Quantum Field Theory, Wiley Interscience (1972). Chapter 10, " The Problem of Infinties in Quantum Electrodymanics."
This text references experiments tha detect the zero-point energy.

8. S.L. Adler, "Some Simple Vacuum Polarization Phenomenology..." Phys. Rev. D10, No. 11 (1974)


NONLINEAR THERMODYNAMICS

9. Ilya Procaccia, J. Ross, Science 198, 716 (18 Nov. 1977)

10. P. Glandsdorff, I. Prigogine, Thermodynamic Theory of Structure, Stability, and Fluctuations, Wiley interscience, NY (1971).

15. P.O. Johnson, " Ball Lightning and Self Containing Electromagnetic Fields." Am. J. Phys. 33, 119 (1965).

16. M. B. King, "Energy Source Implications of a Helicon Toroid Model for Ball Lightning." QPR No. 18, Valley Forge Res. Center, Moore School, University of Pennsylvanna (1976)

You know firewater, I am impressed with your knowledge here. I know this is a bit off the subject but when you where talking about "John Archibald Wheeler" you made me think, why did not that bomb blow up the whole atmosphere and also why did no one make a oxygen bomb?

I was thinking, most the atmosphere has water vapor in it and it is HHO. At the temperature of a Hydrogen Bomb or Atom Bomb is should have been able to burn the water vapor and oxygen in our air. Then I realized maybe there is a safety check against just that. Inert gases and mostly nitrogen possibly which would expand when heated and dilute the atmospheric water vapor so it could only explode so much in the atmosphere without destroying the whole planets atmosphere.

Everything you say and what I already know tells me we have a great designer. You just show me how little mankind has even tapped into the designers creations.

I am a firm believer in Science in the aspect that it proves to me that there is a creator.

I look at water itself as a pure miracle. It is a gas, liquid, and solid. A universal solvent and it is made of 2 very flammable gases yet it can put out fires. When a electrical device is dropped in a tub of water it amplifies it 1,000 times which can cause electrocution. All life on earth can not live without water!

That is just one of many miracles. You yourself are naming off a bunch more here that man has just started to tap into energy wise and at present they are only theories much like Evolution is.

I think Meyer's barely tapped into the real raw power of water himself. Even so he claimed 1,700% efficency. His method is 1,400% more than the most efficent electrolosis out there.

You where talking about capacitors in electronics. That is what his water fuel cell is. A capacitor. From what I learned so far concerning his device for every 100 watts put in you get 300 watts out plus you get a whole bunch of Hydrogen and Oxygen. I personally have always felt since I was a teen that Water was the future for energy. I just did not know how to until recently do this separation work with very little energy. I knew there was a answer but finding it was beyond me. Meyer's did it for me. Basically it is just a matter of a LRC circuit and keeping it in resonance. Any good electronics engineer should easily be able to build a digital circuit that does the same thing as Meyer's found and more possibly. I was a Aviation Electronics Tech. in the US Navy and this is beyond me even still. But I know that it is possible thanks to Meyer's and am trying to build my own as we speak.

With all your knowledge instead of everyone out there arguing over whether or not it works why do you now just build the thing? I am sure that the circuit could be as small as a cell phone when everyone put their heads together and built it. At this time I am making my idea public to all on the WFC itself.

I am using Stainless Steel Wire Mesh with separators from each length that are rolled up like toilet paper. The separators can be anything non-conductive but they have to have vertical channels so the bubbles can escape.

I am starting out small but I figure that this method will miniaturize the WFC so that you can produce massive amounts of bubbles. I am using at present 14 X 14 mesh at 4" width by 10' length at 0.020 diameter but all this is can be changed to what ever mesh and width and length and diameter wire.

It is now in public domain and free for everyone to use but not sell! When I figure out the electronics of it better. (I am looking into using these HD TV flyback transformer circuits and etc. also 12volt Neon Power supplies which I have noticed are disappearing off the net as others have used this off the shelf method.) I plan to post all that when I figure it out also. I am not looking to get rich here. I just want all my energy needs converted to this method of energy. Thaty alone will save me tons of money.

Imagine a large boat. Say about 60' length cruiser running on turbo charged diesel engines. But for fuel they are running on water converted to HHO 100%? You have a whole ocean of water.

Imagine Commercial Jets flying on water? They wreck and there is no fuel to explode. Everyone almost survives. Plus while they fly instead of polluting the air they are actually completely burning all VOC's and making everything cleaner. Since fuel is not a problem the air fairs will be next to nothing and since HHO burns way cleaner than Jet Fuel it will mean less engine damage and carbon build ups.

Imagine this. The dead of winter and instead of chopped logs you are shoveling your snow off you side walks into a tank for converting it to HHO and heating your home with it? For your toilet you do not need water also. You incinerate your stools to make heat to run a steam engine generator and when there are no stools you still run it on the HHO. You can use the excess steam to heat the home also and condense the steam back down to water to reuse it.

Imagine this. Whole underwater communities with plenty of free energy from the water in the ocean to power whatever needs to be powered and to keep the whole underwater community with clean fresh drinking water and so forth and oxygen and etc. For that matter you could have flying platform communities up in the clouds over the oceans. They just need to drop down a large hose and suck up all the water they need to keep it flying. For that matter a recent invention uses salt water in the combustion process of water. He created it as a cancer cure but the FDA turned it down. Now why would they turn down a cure for cancer? They work for the Pharmaceutical Industry is why. That is where they get the most of their funding, not the US government. Reminds me of Nazi Germany when they where also in control there.

The sky is not even the limit of this technology. So why is everyone arguing about it instead of building it? Who cares what laws make it work and what everyone thinks about it when it is a gift from our creator.

Which brings me to the most important part of my post here. I Know there is a intelligent and loving creator. Being intelligent beyond us don't you think he would have given us a manual on how we need to operate so to speak? I firmly believe in the bible as just such a thing.

I know you guys are thinking that there is no way the world was created in such a short time, but that is not the literal days. Our creator may be living by a much lengthier time clock than we are as he is forever. I look at the book of Genesis as if you where telling a 4 or 6 year old kid how you Terra formed a whole planet from a formless mass to what we have today. Those people at that time did not have the knowledge we today have so it was real simple but all the pieces of the puzzle to Terra form the earth are there somewhat.

The bible is applicable to today also as it was even foretold over 2,000 years ago that mankind would be destroying the earth and he is doing just that. In fact in Revelations 11:18 it says god is going to destroy or ruin those destroying or ruining the earth depending on the bible you are using. Mine says ruin. King James Version say destroy.

There is a scripture in the bible that says God (KJV Psalms 83:18) is the giver of every good gift. That means someone else is the giver of all these bad gifts. Any way, I look at water as a extremely good gift to mankind and a answer to our current energy issues. It blows away wind a solar energy as alternatives. If everyone would quit killing those who do it we will be free of the tyrany we have now with large Corporations running our Government. Which is another issue.

On that other issue in Matthew 6:9,10 you are praying to glorify or sanctify or hallowed God's holy name. How is that to happen when they are removing his name from modern bibles first off? Second they are praying for his kingdom which is a government to rule all mankind. This is the whole theme of the bible basically. So that being the case these governments we see today that are corrupted and greedy are going down real soon and not by man's hand. There is also a scripture that says that he will have to cut the days short or no flesh will survive. With all the corruption and greed running the earth and destroying it that puts us at right about no in the stream of time and the way things are today. What some call Armageddon can happen at any time now.

The bible also says it will be like the day of Noah and his family. At that time there was nothing but violence all over the world. For 40 years while Noah was building the ark he warned everyone he saw. They all ridiculed him and laughed at him. But isn't it strange that every nation and people has a giant flood story in their history? They are all descendants of Noah and his family is why. Naturally it will be told eve though they left the true worship of Noah's true God.

You know that all of our time is short in the way things are now. We will die if we do not have divine intervention. We will die also if we are not learning what our creator requires of us as anyone that denies him and shuns his guidelines will not be in the earth after Armagedon.

God's purpose has not changed for this earth. He placed Adam and Eve in it and told them to be fruitful or reproduce and fill the earth and the whole earth and animals and etc in subjection. He did not mean for us to kill them all off either. So his purpose was to spread that Garden paradise which means Garden of pleasure throughout the whole earth. Now he also instituted the first marriage with Adam and Eve. Now if they had not have went against God's one commandment of what not to do or I should say rebelled against God, where would they be today? They would never have died and all mankind would have been perfect. The whole earth would have been perfect and as perfect humans we will have perfect minds and that is what we have to look forward to after Armageddon. That and much more as those in the grave will be resurrected as Jesus already proved he could do on earth 2K years ago. All lost technologies due to greed and corruption will be brought back to us. Such as the Inca Indians technique for tempering copper to make it as strong as steel. Which I already have a theory on since they are doing it with cryogenic type processes. Plus the Orb Spider makes a stronger web than any man manipulated/made synthetic fibers. Plus there is a tree in South Africa that makes natural non-toxic epoxy. Carbon Fiber will not even come close to what we can do. In fact in 1942 a auto maker made the doors of his car out of the left overs of the hemp industry and you could hit it with a sludge hammer and not even phase it. All these toxic chemicals will be done away with also.

Right now white flower is being made white by using Alloxan which is highly toxic and it is causing diabetes. They are injecting chickens with arsenic which is another poison to make them bigger and grow faster. It never ends and the FDA is allowing all this. So arguing about Meyer's is the least of your worries.

Have fun. Got to go. Oh have fun with discretion.