Switching Led

[willeng]

I have been sitting back, reading, frowning & drowning myself with multiple complex issues from a beginners point of view & I am learning bit by bit how much I don't know once again.

In engineering often the most simple basic designs are the best so I just wanted to throw this at you to see if it covers what is needed to do the job but maybe without the complexity.
I realise we need a nice stable power supply which we have talked about & I will build.
Also reading the sensor ratiometricly using the Reference pin which I should be able to do.

This leaves the question about either:
Reference voltages (set points) but as you say these can be the cause of errors & not really required.
So instead of BCD Switches or Rotary encoders etc etc.

Can't I just use a 12 digit numerical Keypad, that way I can just easily select say 20 for 20" of water pressure or whatever, it does away with external reference issues & I should be able to work it out in the sketch. It would simplify things, it may seem basic but the end results should be just as good, I can't see any issues?
Maybe I am wrong of course, I don't mind trying a more complex way but my question is does this really need to be complex?

Basically if I press Number 5 on the keypad I just need to calibrate the output to give me 5" of water pressure.

Just a thought?

What do you think?

Cheers

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

I realize we need a nice stable power supply which we have talked about & I will build.

Not 100% correct. You might be able to switch to a single supply IA: https://www.analog.com/en/specialty...ation-amplifiers/ad8223/products/product.html and drop the negative supply.

Oopps, sorry.

Also reading the sensor ratiometricly using the Reference pin which I should be able to do.

Ratiometric was a big misunderstanding on your part.

Reference voltages (set points) but as you say these can be the cause of errors & not really required.
So instead of BCD Switches or Rotary encoders etc etc. Can't I just use a 12 digit numerical Keypad?

Great, more stuff on the table. The way to think. Yea!

Your bringing back college projects of the 80's. Scan a keyboard and display 4 digits all in Motorola 6800 assembly language.

I was trying to "stay away" from a full blown HMI (Human Machine Interface),

Your original specs were to easily select like 5 setpoints. I took your potentiometer thing, ground it up, spit it out and said - Hey, use a BCD switch (requires 4-bits)

This pretty much satisfies what you need, but "it would be nice" to display the "measured value".

How?
1) An analog meter with an external reference (The meter usually requires another isolated power supply)
2) have the uC do it.
3) Display could be switched to measured value, SP and optionally deviation (somehow)

So, I took it two steps further:

Reserve one position for - manual

But, I came up with two versions of manual and not mutually exclusive either.

1) Take a 3 digit or so BCD switch and use it directly to set pressure in Engineering units.
You had one already, so reading another 3 is virtually cake.

So, for instance position 0, means use the other 3 digit BCD wheel.

The use of an extra switch here or there is part of the HMI. SO if you wanted a toggle switch set horizontally yo point at the left (setpoint) or right (arrray of setpoints)m that's an HMI decision and probably a good one at the expense of a bit.

Then got "giggles", it would be neat to "tweek". So, the rotary encoder is not essential. It's VALUE ADDED. It takes whatever setpoint you have set and each click increments or decrements it a bit. And again for another value added function and probably not necessary, is to make it a 0 to 100% continuously variable.

Can't get tables to work, Anyway layout something like this:

a:xx.x BCD .....,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,...<A switch B>..............b:x BCD...........................DISPLAY
.........................................................................................................................MV
...................................Tweek encoder........................................................DEV (switch)...........On/Off E-stop
........................................................................................................ .................SP

The left switch selects what BCD thingy to use.
The display can be set to measured, Setpoint and deviation is optional.
The "tweek" encoder just modifies any setpoint.

Even without the tweek encoder, I think it satisfies everything.
BCD switches (in this case 4) are easy to read.
A switch is easy.
A 3 position switch, like DPDT (center off) a bit harder.

Flip the design a bit maybe for ergonomics. It's probably better for a left-handed person. It came out in order of importance.

Deviation might be a little tough to implement. It's hard to implement with a separate independent meter. meaning the use of another IA to do the subtraction and an analog multiplexer would be required.

So, the uC spitting out the values on a serial or BCD display would be the easiest.

The encoder would be a pain. The idea would be to pretend the encoder exists from the design point of view. Make room for it on the panel even, but don't implement it unless you think it's necessary.

You still need buttons, like clear, enter, delete, go, stop
Other options: Increment/Decrement (array) with two displays measured and setpoint or a single serial display.
Increment/decrement digit as pushbuttons using a single display.

What bothers me, in general, is that serial MIGHT interfere with PID/interrupts/Phase angle firing and so could an encoder for that matter.

So, other options are possible, Explain how your keyboard might work?

When you design stuff, there are a lot of things you can mimimize and they are not mutually exclusive and not the same for everyone. Cost to produce, time to market, cost to develop, easy to assemble. Space applications of solar cells are more concerned about weight and efficiency, For terrestrial cells, you need to get them up a ladder and cost is more of an issue than efficiency or weight.

 

[willeng]

Ratiometric was a big misunderstanding on your part.

Yes, I realised what ratiometric was but didn't realise the total effect it could have on the accuracy of the control circuit until you pointed everything out.

Explain how your keyboard might work?

Ok, give me a little time to try to put it into words & i'll add another post later today.

When you design stuff, there are a lot of things you can mimimize and they are not mutually exclusive and not the same for everyone. Cost to produce, time to market, cost to develop, easy to assemble.

Yes but in my case, the cost will be minimal, no marketing issues as this is for my personal use only & no market involved, development time is free, now for the biggy (easy to assemble).

I think the main basic requirement for me besides the ease of assembly is:

Not to tackle things at this particular time that are beyond my knowledge level regarding electronics or programming.

The way I am looking at it is that if I can put together something that is reasonable & not beyond what I understand at this stage & get it working I can then study things & keep the improvements rolling along.
It matters not to me if I have to make fifty circuits or write a hundred sketches to get to the final solution.

My knowledge will only allow me to take one step at a time, I have always worked with a notion that you make it, break it & built it better so it doesn't break.
With electronics I am still in the "Make it" zone which has stumbling blocks being a novice.

Get back to you later.

Cheers

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Fix it so it doesn't break again - Where have I heard that before? - Oh!, Me

===

Displays (examples only)
1) The Murata/Datel with an ext reference
2) The I2C version (mAX6958/6959): https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...f7mOyyJUUoIkwfQ&bvm=bv.74894050,d.cWc&cad=rja
3) Brute force method: https://learn.parallax.com/4-digit-7-segment-led-display-arduino-demo

 

[willeng]

I have a new Digital Panel Meter, will this do the job?
https://www.mpja.com/download/12207me.pdf

It is a CX102, I note that the CX102 comes in either A or B versions for different power supply voltages, the damn problem is that on the back of the panel meter the part No is CX102 & it has no prefix A or B written on it so I do not actually know what supply voltage it is meant for, bloody imported rubbish once again!
On the packaging it has CX101A, Cx101B, Cx102A & Cx102B which is really helpful?

I guess if it is the 9V version that 5V wouldn't hurt it to start with would it?

I also have some 16x2 LCD displays as well.

Ok, on to the numerical keypad of which I have one also.

" Explain how your keyboard might work?"

I started thinking about this & the best way for me to start with is to imagine I was going use the keypad & the Arduino to control PWM for LED brightness or say DC motor speed etc & how to go about it.
Basically you have the arduino scan for which button is pressed & then output a set value of PWM to whatever it is you want to power.

Maybe the same scenario for the PID, scan for which button or buttons are pressed & have the button numbers correspond to output values from the power byte map, so PID out would equal X number from the power byte map in the sketch giving X inches of water pressure.

It's easier for me to do it rather than trying to put it into words these days, I might have a play around with the lamp PID & see if I can work things out first.
It will be interesting to try anyway.

Not really sure but I think it will work if I can sort it correctly, what do you think?

Cheers

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

MPJA DMM - Short answer - Maybe. No reference input. Now, it could be the pins they jumped together. Ref In to Ref out, but I don't see them.

I have to think about the rest.

Have you played much with "software debouncing" of switches?

Updated the answer to Maybe: The meter could be used strictly as a display where the uC does the ratiometric read.

 

[willeng]

Have you played much with "software debouncing" of switches?

Only using Delay but I can learn.

I had a look for any other digital displays I might have but only have several of these (YELLOW 5082-7620), data sheet attached.
I will have to buy something.

Cheers

EDIT: I just had a look at debouncing without delay & I think I can get that to work ok.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Your like a kid in a candy store. You need to think first.

Honestly, you don't want to wire up a display and multiplex it. Find an easier way. i.e https://embedded-lab.com/blog/?p=7136
is an example.

Your "voltmeter" would be to display a 2 digit, 1 decimal point and 1 other digit.
1. (Setpoint) From a variable - so you have to massage it
2. (Measured Value) From your A/D converter with the external reference converted to engineering notation or using #1
3. (devaition) subreact the two and display a sign.

Don;t try to build EVERYTHING. That;s for the guys with more time or the guys making millions of widgets.

One of the problems with multiplexing your own displays is that brightness control is a pain sometimes if you need it. I hope you don't have a preference of LCD, LED or VFD (Vacuum Florescent Display) ?
LCD's good in bright sun. LED's not so much. VFD's are just plain cool if you ask me. Yellow is best used bright light. The eye is most sensitive to yellow. Green is very good in a dark room.

The whole point is, the Arduino will be doing PID nearly all the time and I don't think you want to be managing too many real time processes. e.g. multiplex a display and do PID, get inputs etc. Way back when I suggested that you might want to break things up. Do PID in a controller all by itself. Then you can spend all the time you need with a human interface without having to battle multiple real time processes.

If anything, it's to break things down into manageable blocks.

You have to cut the tangent lines too. Break things up into manageable pieces or manageable "lessons".

You want to write "glue code" and not "do everything". In general, it's better to buy than build to a point. If you can't get what you want, then build. If you can get what you want, but a couple for obsolesence sake. That's happening so fast these days.

When i was charged in upgrading a measurement system from BCD meteers and strip chart recorders, (This was about the time of Windows 3.1 and the MAC Centris ERA. I said the technology isn't at where we need it and I was told. the money is here. The issue I guess I was battling is that I actually needed more manpower. As time went on, I kept feeling that it was 2 steps forward and 3 steps backwards all along. I chose LabView which was in it's infancy and only available for the MAC. The PC version was "coming". The MAC had 32 character filenames and a flat memory model and the PC had 8.3 filenames and a fragmented memory model.

Initially, the system was based on test and print until it was found that printing would take a few minutes with a laser printer, but it was MUCH faster if things were batched and printed at the end of the day. The system was actually slower, but that was management's decision because of money and the method I suggested was not proven. Some 17 years later, the method I chose initially was used.

The LabView software was undergoing massive changes to make it cross-platform. Now it excels in the PC platform. So, I make changes to fix "flicker" and NI fixes it in LabView in a later release. I didn't know the language and a "student" didn't know it either. I would do the "proof of concept" or find the "how to". I concentrated on the UI (which was approved very early on) and the software design. I also said, i would code talking to the instruments. He worked with "simulated instruments" for a long time and "simulate mode" continued even after development.

The other system was much worse because the PC or even MAC wasn;t real time and could not control a stepper. I based my design on automating what we had, not buying an automated monochometer. In the end, an IEEE-488 controlled monochometer with an integral filter wheel was available at like $15,000 USD. My parts cost was like $3000 because I had to stay within budget. I did have to write a bit of firmware to control a filter wheel and that part was part of the stepper controller. So, at the end, the big box controlled two shutters with IEEE-488 to an RS232 adapter. No stepper; No filter wheel. The mechanical design of the filter wheel was really cool. Hall effect position sensors, an "in position" signal with Go to n position commands. The low level routines to control the stepper were way too much to handle because there was no Labview driver.

I've chased a "moving target" and didn't like it.

 

[willeng]

Your like a kid in a candy store. You need to think first.

Haha, no not really, I was merely saying that's all I had here, like I mentioned I would have to buy something.

Nearly all the components I have are recycled components, like the small single displays mentioned previously. Vodaphone updated there equipment & threw away thousands of dollars worth of circuits loaded with components, I noticed these huge cabinets full of components & got them for free at a recycling centre, so I have a "lot of recycled components" to use up.

I don't buy much at all these days due to not being able to work anymore.


Cheers

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Not really sure but I think the [Keyboard method] will work if I can sort it correctly, what do you think?

I think my interface is simpler except for the "rotary encoder" aspect which at this point is optional.

Biggest worry:
Too many time critical processes running at once.​

---An analog meter offloads a good part of it.

UPDATE: Now that I think about it, your MPJA DMM could probably be used indirectly. The Auduino would be doing the ratiometric measuring and outputting an analog voltage fo MV, SP and Deviation. so, indirectly, it's an option. Read the SP/MV/DEV switch state and the output: 1) some voltage read by the A/D in ratiometric mode and scaled. 2) A Deviation and 3) the setpoint. The only reason to use a meter with an external reference and scaling is to make that reading somewhat independent or a check on your code.

Or the some sort of naked display or one with some smarts in a way that it doesn;t take too long to talk to it while doing PID.

Dexterity

ROTARTY SWITCH vs. Thumbwheel for setpoint array.
Earlier, you had mentioned that dexterity might be an issue. If that's the case, then substitute a rotary (4 pole, n position or (1 pole n position) switch for the x setpoints.
2 poles for 3 position, 3 poles for 8 positions and 4 poles for a max of 16 positions. Still keep the BCD switch for "manual entry".

? Have you figured out how the thumbwheel switches are wired? Do you have enough endcaps to make two banks?

Thumbwheels/BCD
Thumbweels/BCD is way too easy to read. With 8 I/O ports, you can read 16 switches. You would have to be looking for state changes.

So far, not hard, right? Meaning, you might still have to contact debounce or "DO IT WITH SOLDER". There are a number of hardware approaches for debouncing. Software debouncing probably makes the code messy. There is a Hex contact bounce thing that was made by Motorola: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MC14490-D.PDF&ei=cI8SVP_3MdC2yASu9YDIAg&usg=AFQjCNGflriuLgQ_Zfzilfn__Fv3LHfzFA&sig2=fYoC27BD1Ak5YnTt0piYQA&bvm=bv.75097201,d.aWw&cad=rja

Elmelectronics, I think has one made from a PIC. i.e. https://www.elmelectronics.com/ebench.html#Switches

This trades software complexity for a little bit of hardware.

The building of the thumbwheel multiplexor is just like the LED thing. A bunch of wires, but the concept is easy. Each bit sits on a bus, so you have a bus of bit (1), a bus of bit (2), a bus of bit (4) and a bus of bit(8) and you enable which switch you want to read because the output is in Hi-Z of the Tr-state output. You just have to make sure the power up condition turns all of the transceivers off. Again, you can save bits by using hardware. I might still be missing something concerning debouncing. When you have complementary outputs available, debouncing is a bit easier. You may have to hardware debounce every switch bit.

so, in this scenero, you have to have a display rate and that could be say every 4 zero crosses. So, you figure out what you have to display, read and display it. Maybe even moving average it if it's the measured value or deviation. Alternately, (every 4 half cycles) look at the BCD, but do the reads every 8. That may be enough to hardware debounce the inputs or it might be unresponsive to the user.

The point is, your not worried about multiplexing etc.

Encoder

It's an option, but again, try to offload some of the processing. It may have to be interrupt driven, but you could offload the debouncing and get hopefully a clean UP/Down input.
In some user interfaces you can calculate rate to make the number of pulses increase when you turn it faster. In this case, we now have a lot of interrupts to deal with and you have to do whatever very quickly and get out of the interrupt service routine. So, it just updates the count and sets a variable that the count changed and exits. At say one of the 1/2 cycle zero crossings, it would update the setpoint.


--
Modified post #206 to Maybe the MPJA meter could be used as reflected in this post.

 

[willeng]

Dexterity.

Yes, I can still do most things but am just unstable balance wise, basically have to lean on things to keep stable & it takes me forever to do things but I get there very slowly as I can't think like I used to be able to do. Using thumbwheel switches is no issue, I find them good to use.

Have you figured out how the thumbwheel switches are wired? Do you have enough endcaps to make two banks?

I can see how they work & how to connect them etc. Not exactly sure what I have to do in the software to register set points but I'll leave that for now until I know exactly what is needed.
I have in total 8 Thumbwheel switches & 8 end caps.

Software debouncing probably makes the code messy. There is a Hex contact bounce thing that was made by Motorola:

There seems to be a few alternatives to debouncing, when I get ahead a little I will check some things out regarding this.

Maybe the MPJA meter could be used as reflected in this post.

I don't mind buying the correct display panel for this.
I noticed these on ebay, I know they are cheap but more than likely the same components as others for sale, are they suitable?
**broken link removed**

It's just handy due to me having an ebay account, if they are any good I will buy some.

I had a look at some of the boards I have for IC's that you have mentioned & found some that may be suitable, not that I know how to use them yet though!
The SN74LS138J is actually Motorola but I can't seem to find the datasheet on it?

See Attached.

Can this be done without the Rotary Encoder, maybe I could add that later but if it's required then I will do it?

What I really need is a rough diagram, even a block diagram showing what components are connected to what & a brief description of the function of each in laymans terms, it would simplify things for me & then I can study it as a unit & work it out. Only if you have time that is, I find it a little hard at the moment as it's like a jig saw puzzle with pieces everywhere.

Cheers

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Right now, I'm in a bad mood, but anyway:

Suppose we had a routine called ReadWafer(x)
It would just return a number from 0 through 9.
Not saying how it got there just yet.

Now suppose we labeled the wafers:
0: for the ??.x place
1: for the ?x.? place
2: for the x?.x place

3: for the ArrayIndex of Setpoint(ArrrayIndex)
We did reserve a few ArrayIndexes (e.g. 0 is for manual)

ReadSetpoint() might do something like:
A=0
A=A+ReadWafer(0)/10
A=A+ReadWafer(1)
A=A+ReadWafer(2)*10
Set limits on A; e.g. 99.9 etc is invalid.
Here comes stuff like "Light a red LED" if out of range?
Return(A)

ReadIndex() might do the following
return ReadWafer(3)

How ReadWafer works depends, in part, of what you have for a BCD switch.
In theory, it would call SelectWafer(n); n is 0 to 3
and it would do whatever is necessary to align the binary digits.
If it was a 8 bit port where the 8 4 2 1 weightings were exactly that.
the routine would set the upper 4 bits to zero.
e.g read port A
Port A = Port A and 15

It could do a shift if the bits were the high nibble. e.g. 128 (8), 64 (4), 32 (2) and 16 (1).
It might have to invert the value
return A

SelectWafer(n)
might have to set bits in the middle of a port.
We might use: 00, 01, 10, 11 or say 001, 010 and 101
We might use complements.
Might make wafer 0 no wafer selected.

return(n)

So, for now, how what kind of BCD switch do you have?
BCD
inverted BCD
Complementary


We might have a bit for the A/B switch so have a routine called?

MANUALorARRAY()
It might look at the state of a single bit and
if port (A and 16) =16 then return MANUAL else RETURN ARRAY

MANUAL and ARRAY are enums. MANUAL could be defined as 0 and ARRAY could be defined as 1, but it makes the code more readable.
An enum is an emumerated variable or lack of another word, a constant. The compiler saves space if you have a bunch of constants 1 and 0, for instance.

e.g.
If MANUALorARRAY()=MANUAL then do this else do that.

==

You did good with the pool of parts to draw from. I don;t exactly know what to do with them until, you know what kind of BCD switch you have.
We may also have to deal with "bounce".

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

BCD

You can take a look here **broken link removed** at the various datasheets.

BCD:
**broken link removed**

Here **broken link removed** is one with VARIOUS code maps. Hence, i don;t want to design anything without knowing what you have.

Here's **broken link removed** a commercial product. Diode isolation is another way to go, again somewhat depending on your switch.

With the first figure, you could diode isolate each digit and where it shows a ground, you can replace that with an open collector inverter. As long as the diode drop+the V(CE) drop of the inverter will trigger the logic threshold you need, the interface could get simpler, Gotta look at the datasheets again. i.e the Mega.

So, that suggested a pull-up. The pull-up COULD be integral to the Mega, who knows. Need to check the archetecture. 4 diodes per BCD switch, and one Hex open collector inverter. That could be really simple, An optional part of so, if we're conserving bits.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

LED Display

I think it's a nice find. It probably uses this library: https://playground.arduino.cc/Main/LedControl it's nearly free, not cheap. It could be fast, but I have no idea.
It might now be easy to have some "value added" options with the extra digits. You could have the SP and MV on the display. You could even use two on top of one another with one being the labels or status message or brief message.

I don't know if I told you, but in that PID thingy that me and a co-worker designed used things like + (Heating), - (cooling), ~ (conditionally stable) = (Stable), O for Open, S for shorted and E for something else. We took the guess work out of "At temperature" by building in a criteria of stability. Within a certain deviation for x amount of time. If it was within the deviation is got the ~. If the time passed, it got the = sign.

I think there are a few things I like. Anypins (I think), Fast (hopefully), nearly free.

For giggles look at: https://www.adafruit.com/categories/96

But one or two dual LED displays look very promising and generally display Setpoint and measured value and alternately setpoint and deviation and possibly the other display for messages or labels.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

I'm having a hard time finding the source and sink currents and the logic levels for the digital pins for the Arduino.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

BCD

It's very annoying that I could not find a definitive source of th eport specifications for the 2560. I found this: **broken link removed** which say 1/2 the supply voltage which can't be right either because there always has to be some hysteresis. From the processor datasheet, the ports are different. They may even be able to be configured as Open drain or Open collector.

So assuming you have a BCD or complementary BCD, diode isolation for each wafer with pull-ups (e.g. 10K), fed into an ELM409 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=https://www.elmelectronics.com/DSheets/ELM409DS.pdf&ei=r5EUVJS1IYOiyAS9hIHQDg&usg=AFQjCNG6rZz23VGNOps9dDY2WUNTpVeSgw&sig2=qo-8yIAQr-ys74cZI1QtUA&bvm=bv.75097201,d.aWw&cad=rja you can get bot inverted and non-inverted outputs.

Then use an open collector or open drain inverter to select the wafer. Really simple.

Since there is only 4 wafers, you could gain an extra 2 ports by using an IC or two. i.e. turn 11 into 1000 etc. You may not need the inverter. SIP resistor packs are good for pull-ups.

So, BCD is nailed and the LED display is virtually nailed,

If you need a ON/OFF to binary input, a pull up and the ELM part will also work.

If you need 3 positions, like from a ON-OFF-ON switch, then a DPDT switch and two contact debouncers will work. 11 center, 01 and 10 for positions.

I would prefer that you do the debouncing in hardware because you have too much stuff going on managing PID.

That pretty much leaves the optional rotary encoder interface. Again, I would "off-load" from software from what I could.

As I said earlier, you might need a LED or even a bi or tri-color LED to indicate a setpoint out of range. e.g. a Bi-pin green, yellow red. green - sp in range, yel -below min value and red - above max value.

You could develop "open frame" and then when complete, put it in a box. i.e wood bottom with L brackets for the parts.

==

You might not have to debounce anything, but the encoder.

 

[willeng]

Hi Kiss,

I have been without the internet for a couple of days due to a modem failure, just bought a new one & online again now.

Looks like I have a bit to read so i'll get at it & get back to you.

Cheers

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

I wondered where you got to? I have a contingency for that. I can buy wireless internet service by the hour, the day or the month. A little "pocket router" so to speak. So, if I want Internet while on vacation or a trip etc, just take the gizmo and "re-fill" it with money.

 

[willeng]

Just quickly a coupe of things.

The BCD Switches are the same as these: http://www.altronics.com.au/p/s3300-0-9-bcd-mini-thumbwheel-switch/

The datasheet for the 2560 datasheet is to big to attach but it does mention the maximum 40mA I/O port current.
http://www.atmel.com/Images/Atmel-2...r-ATmega640-1280-1281-2560-2561_datasheet.pdf

Just thought I would quickly post these before going any further.

Cheers

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

BCD: No datasheet. You really need to figure out how they are wired. 8-4-2-1 weighting does suggest BCD, Trust, but verify. The few simple ohmmeter checks with it set to 1,2,4 and 8. Find common and the 4 pins. Hopefully, this thing has 5.

Bedtime for me on the other one.

Looking for specs like Vih and Vil Example document: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjAB&url=https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/2003/DigElec/part2-data.pdf&ei=7oIWVIzVGqjbsASUjYCgDA&usg=AFQjCNEtsUL1XJnoPSxc6soiEj1Cjr9OiQ&bvm=bv.75097201,d.cWc

==

EDIT: The info needed is starting at PDF page 380 in the form of graphs on the document you showed. The threshold voltage is about 1/2 Vcc at 5V. Output Low and Output High are dependent on the amount of current sinked or sourced.