wiring a relay ( dual) to operate 2 electromagnets

[eTech]

Hi , you've done an incredible job of translating gobbledegook into English and I take my hat off to you , however i'm still having a problem knowing what modes are to be used in the setup process ie when I scroll through the modes I get offered 5 ie P-2 or P-4 or P1.1 or P1.2 or P1.3 and I don't have a clue as to which is the right one ?.

Read the notes on the drawing in post #72

 

[garyd]

Hi , i'm having problems in achieving the sequence as you list it , when I get to step 4.5 and I short press set key it just stays on 15 seconds no matter how many times I short press ? .

 

[eTech]

Hi , i'm having problems in achieving the sequence as you list it , when I get to step 4.5 and I short press set key it just stays on 15 seconds no matter how many times I short press ? .

Do a long press.

 

[garyd]

Ok , i'm having to work tonight till the small hours but will try it in morning although something tells me that I already did try a long press , anyways i'll play around with it and see how I get on .

 

[garyd]

Hi , Well i'm as sure as I can be that i'm setting the timer boards correctly except for one thing that I need to run past you and it is in regard to the decimal point , i'm setting the No1 board at 005. and the No2 board at 015. does this look correct ? .I have noticed that every time I energise the RL1 via the Lenz handset by issuing a DCC switching command the relay on the RL1 clicks but at no point in issuing commands do either of the relays on the timer boards click and i've further noticed that the attached uncoupler never even begins to get warm and they do warm up quite quickly when fed with current using just the RL1 .

 

[eTech]

Hi , Well i'm as sure as I can be that i'm setting the timer boards correctly except for one thing that I need to run past you and it is in regard to the decimal point , i'm setting the No1 board at 005. and the No2 board at 015. does this look correct ?

Yes.

I have noticed that every time I energise the RL1 via the Lenz handset by issuing a DCC switching command the relay on the RL1 clicks but at no point in issuing commands do either of the relays on the timer boards click and i've further noticed that the attached uncoupler never even begins to get warm and they do warm up quite quickly when fed with current using just the RL1 .

Then you have an error in the wiring.

The circuit to the uncoupler should be initially open at power up. So the uncoupler should not get warm at all because it should have no power to its coil. I have a couple of these timers, they are wired exactly like the diagram, and they work perfectly.
(I don't have a Lenz or uncoupler though, but that shouldn't matter).

Do you have a multi-meter (volt/ohm meter) to use for testing?

 

[garyd]

Yes I have a reasonable digital multimeter that was my dads , i'm workinng late again so in the morning i'll check the wiring and see if anything seems to be amiss .

 

[garyd]

Hi , you'll no doubt be pleased to hear that basically it all seems to be working in that the timer boards now go through their countdowns and the uncoupler definately operates as it should but it seems to take a around a minute before I can repeat the sequence , i'm wondering if this is due to the Capacitor needing to recharge ? , it's not a problem but rather an observation as in normal use the timer should prevent a further uncoupling for 15 minutes anyway . You are no doubt wondering if I had anything wired wrong and I did in that unbelievably I had conncted 1 wire to the RL1's first relay and the other 2 wires 2 it's second relay Doh !!! I don't know where my mind was at the time but it must have been away with the Fairies lol.

 

[eTech]

Hi , you'll no doubt be pleased to hear that basically it all seems to be working in that the timer boards now go through their countdowns and the uncoupler definately operates as it should but it seems to take a around a minute before I can repeat the sequence , i'm wondering if this is due to the Capacitor needing to recharge ? , it's not a problem but rather an observation as in normal use the timer should prevent a further uncoupling for 15 minutes anyway .

Hmm...

Once the output of RL1 is commanded to energize, you have to manually command it to de-energize right?
When the RL1 de-energizes, the capacitor should charge up within a few milliseconds (a few thousandths of a second).
So...after a few milliseconds it should be ready to trigger the timer again.

Is the behavior consistent?
Are you having to command it multiple times to get the timer to trigger?

If so, you could try increasing the capacitance by placing another capacitor in parallel with the existing one.
For example, if you connect two 1uf capacitor like this:

The values will add together and total 2uf.

Or you could just replace the existing capacitor and use a single capacitor of a larger value like 10uF or 22uf.
This will increase the current discharged into the timer trigger input.

You are no doubt wondering if I had anything wired wrong and I did in that unbelievably I had conncted 1 wire to the RL1's first relay and the other 2 wires 2 it's second relay Doh !!! I don't know where my mind was at the time but it must have been away with the Fairies lol.

LOL

 

[garyd]

Once the output of RL1 is commanded to energize, you have to manually command it to de-energize right? yes that's correct .
I forgot to include in my last post that when I was examing the wiring for a fault I was looking at your circuit diagram and realised that i'd fitted the wrong value Diode across the uncoupler coil ie I had used a 1N4001 when I should have used a 1N4004 does this matter ? I don't have any 1N4004 diodes but have ordered some today .I'll order 2 Caps and put the 2 1uf ones into dads electrical box of thingies as it'll keep things neater what value do you recommend ?.

 

[eTech]

Once the output of RL1 is commanded to energize, you have to manually command it to de-energize right? yes that's correct .
I forgot to include in my last post that when I was examing the wiring for a fault I was looking at your circuit diagram and realised that i'd fitted the wrong value Diode across the uncoupler coil ie I had used a 1N4001 when I should have used a 1N4004 does this matter ? I don't have any 1N4004 diodes but have ordered some today

Yes...the diode across the uncoupler coil should be a 1N4004.

.I'll order 2 Caps and put the 2 1uf ones into dads electrical box of thingies as it'll keep things neater what value do you recommend ?.

I'm not sure changing the capacitor will fix anything, you havn't answered my question on how the circuit is behaving.
Anyway...I would get one of each value, one 10uf, and one 22uf, 35v minimum, electrolytic. That way you can try the smaller value then go to the larger value if it doesn't help. Observe the polarity marking when connecting into the circuit.

 

[garyd]

It's quite unreliable at the moment , ie I just tried it and it would'nt start the countdowns and after about 5 attempts the No 1 board shut off completely with no lights on , I removed all power to the layout waited about 30 seconds then powered up and sent a DCC command to switch and it did and counted down and I know the uncoupler energised as it had warmed up a little , I then waited about 30 seconds and sent another DCC command and nothing happened I cancelled the command and then I I sent the command several more times but it still refused to operate , it's as if it has trouble resetting itself .

 

[eTech]

It's quite unreliable at the moment , ie I just tried it and it would'nt start the countdowns and after about 5 attempts the No 1 board shut off completely with no lights on , I removed all power to the layout waited about 30 seconds then powered up and sent a DCC command to switch and it did and counted down and I know the uncoupler energised as it had warmed up a little , I then waited about 30 seconds and sent another DCC command and nothing happened I cancelled the command and then I I sent the command several more times but it still refused to operate , it's as if it has trouble resetting itself .

OK...might be poorly connected wires. The timers should never shut off completely. The LED readout should always be lit because its connected directly to the power supply (unless you are powering it thru a switch of some kind).
Is the 20v power supply capable of providing enough current for the uncoupler coil? It should be at leat a 3A supply. Maybe its overloading.

You can also try using a larger value capacitor.

 

[garyd]

Yes it's 4.5 Amps @20 V , i've ordered 10uf and 22uf Caps but I reckon I won't see them till Tuesday next at the earliest , in the meantime i'll check that all connections are secure .

 

[garyd]

Hi , I fitted a 10uf Capacitor and a 1N004 Diode as they both arrived today and joy of joy it appears to be working as designed , on first applying power the No2 timer board runs through it's 15 second countdown , once it is finished I send a DCC command via the Lenz handset and the No 1 timer board counts down it's 5 second countdown followed by the No2 timer board doing it's 15 seconds and it's repeatable so I think we are there .

 

[eTech]

Hi , I fitted a 10uf Capacitor and a 1N004 Diode as they both arrived today and joy of joy it appears to be working as designed , on first applying power the No2 timer board runs through it's 15 second countdown , once it is finished I send a DCC command via the Lenz handset and the No 1 timer board counts down it's 5 second countdown followed by the No2 timer board doing it's 15 seconds and it's repeatable so I think we are there .

Great!…Glad you got it working.

 

[garyd]

I "got it working" ? ,no it's entirely due to you , your patience and advice were absoluely essential because there is no way I could have achieved this without your help ,and I have learnt a great deal about electronics into the bargain so you have my grateful thanks Sir .

 

[garyd]

One last thing , garyd was my dad my name is Kye , I accessed the site using his credentials but I will now let them know and ask if I can takeover the account as I've seen that dad had help on here before on a computer related problem , it;s a great site and I would really like to stay .

 

[eTech]

One last thing , garyd was my dad my name is Kye , I accessed the site using his credentials but I will now let them know and ask if I can takeover the account as I've seen that dad had help on here before on a computer related problem , it;s a great site and I would really like to stay .

I forgot to say…welcome to ETO!!

you came to the right place. There are some very helpful and knowledgeable members on this site.
The moderators can help with any questions regarding membership.

 

[garyd]

Thank you , i'll do that this very week .