Help with Water Pump

[salty joe]

Thanks Alec.

I connected the Vt from channels a & b together in the FSM. That Vt is connected to one tidal timer Vt and PDMa & PDMb Vt.
FSM channel a Isense and channel a fault are connected to PDMa.
FSM channel b Isense and channel b fault are connected to PDMb.
I did the same with FSM channels c & d and PDMc & PDMd, using the other tidal timer Vt.

The pumps toggle and everything, but the alarm LED does not light up if a pump is unplugged. Yesterday, all four PDM trip tests would light the alarm LED and stop the pump until the next toggle, so I don’t think there’s a problem with the alarm.

Before I go over the FSM with a fine toothed comb, can you please tell me if the FSM should trip the alarm if a pump is unplugged?

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

I do believe that this was discussed, but only a stall or overcurrent condition is ckecked. There would have to be a minimum current detect with a mechanism to not detect the higher start current. I do believ there is none.

The more likely scnereo is that the bearing will pick up crud and eventually slow down and eventually stop.

One the system is up and running, the more complex adustment needs to be performed to set the threshold for a stall.

Alec, is the authority though.

Detecting a running motor is another whistle or bell. Much more easily implemented in software, but we didnt go that route. Maybe next time?

When everything is working, there could be some effort in doing a "theory of operation" so Joe doesn't have to use the "replicator" every time there is a problem.

Steve Ciarcia from Circuit Cellar magazine, has always said his favorite programming language is solder.

 

[salty joe]

Edit;
It occurred to me during dinner that I did not connect 12V or signal ground to FSM.
But it’s a good kind of embarrassment because FSM works. Ha-ha.

I have 4 PDMs and 4 pumps running in tidal mode.
I unplugged one active pump that was toggling along and the alarm LED lit up, and when I plugged the pump back in the pump turned back on and the alarm LED turned off. Nice! Very Nice!

The other active pump would not turn back and the alarm LED stays lit after being unplugged and plugged back in, even after several toggles. Prior to being unplugged it was toggling along. I tried adjusting the pot on the PDM but it did not seem to make a difference. Tomorrow I’ll try hooking a different FSM channel to that pump and see what happens.

“Steve Ciarcia from Circuit Cellar magazine, has always said his favorite programming language is solder. “
That’s a good one.
Thanks you guys.

 

[salty joe]

. Nice! Very Nice!

The other active pump would not turn back and the alarm LED stays lit after being unplugged and plugged back in, even after several toggles. Prior to being unplugged it was toggling along. I tried adjusting the pot on the PDM but it did not seem to make a difference. Tomorrow I’ll try hooking a different FSM channel to that pump and see what happens.


Thanks you guys.

It was a bad receptacle on my multi-plug power strip. All four FSM channels work like a champ. What a nice feature to be alerted to a tripped GFI or unplugged pump. This is a neat circuit and a beautiful addition to the system. Thank you!!! Later today I hope to test the other four 12V FSM channels on the wave PDMs.

 

[alec_t]

can you please tell me if the FSM should trip the alarm if a pump is unplugged?

Yup; that's its purpose in life. The PDMs handle over-current and locked rotor situations. So between them all likely faults should be covered and cause an alarm.

All four FSM channels work like a champ.

Hurrah!

 

[salty joe]

The other four 12V FSM channels work perfectly with the wave timer. The FSM is an outstanding feature, I love it!

As soon as I find a battery, (my friends motorcycle battery would not hold a charge) I’ll test the 12.6V system. It’s been 90 degrees, 32.2for you Alec, with abazillion % humidity and after working all day in the heat I can’t bring myself to work outside by my truck. Besides, sweat dripping onto a circuit can’t be good… Another friend has a car they are going to junk. Maybe I can snag that battery for a few days.
Just wanted to touch base. Thanks guys!

 

[alec_t]

The other four 12V FSM channels work perfectly with the wave timer.

Hurrah again!

It’s been 90 degrees, 32.2for you Alec

It's been 30°C here (unusually for Wales) .

Maybe I can snag that battery for a few days.

Should be good for testing. I'm no battery expert, but Ronv suggested your charging circuit be set at 13.8V. In another thread he said 'Leisure batteries' show 12.8V when fully charged. So the final setting of the output from the '317 in the FPPB-Mk2 will depend on the type of battery you end up with.

 

[salty joe]

BTW, as the 13.8V is uncomfortably close to the rated 15V limit of the 4093 ICs in the filter system PDMs, for improved reliability it might be advisable to put a couple of diodes (1N4148 or 1N400x) in series between the 13.8V line and the '12V' inputs of those two PDMs, to drop the volts down to ~ 12.6. I'll try to remember to add those on the pic and re-label the battery's '12V' as 12.6 accordingly.

Will you please tell me if I have this right? Connect a cathode to the 'out' leg of LM317, (on the filter pumps power back-up) connect the anode of that first diode to the cathode of a second diode, then send the anode of the second diode to the PDMs for 12.6V.

I have a battery in my basement and hope to test this weekend. Thanks guys.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

@Joe

Conventional current flows from cathode to Anode. Each diode drops about 0.6 Volts or so. Two diodes in series mean cathode in, then connect the anode of that first diode to the cathode of the next diode. The string will have one anode and one cathode. If you connect the + voltage to the cathode of the string, you should have 1.2 V less at the free anode of the srring.

Backwards connecting and measuring without a load, MAY actually read the source voltage because of leakage.

Placing the anode of two diode in series at the source, say 13.2 volts would result

 

[salty joe]

OK KISS, thanks for that confirmation of diode arrangement. If I haven't learned anything else, when I get the feeling that this must be the way it gets hooked up it's really a red flag. I'm very grateful to have you guys checking on me.

Am I correct to assume the filter pumps timer should also get 12.6V? If so, can that 12.6V come from the same pair of diodes that are feeding the PDMs?

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Your using the diodes to act as a comfort buffer, so you don't want 13.8 V where the 12 V regulator would have been.

If the filter pumps are backed up from the same backup power source, then yes, you can use the same pair of diodes.

 

[salty joe]

OK, will do-thanks.

 

[alec_t]

Will you please tell me if I have this right? Connect a cathode to the 'out' leg of LM317, (on the filter pumps power back-up) connect the anode of that first diode to the cathode of a second diode, then send the anode of the second diode to the PDMs for 12.6V.

No. T'other way round. The diode connection is as in the attachment in post #2041 (FPPB-Mk2).
It's only the filter pump system (including the filter pump timer) which directly gets the 12. 6V derived from the 13.8V at the '317 output.

 

[salty joe]

Thank you Alec. I'll get it hooked up this weekend.

 

[salty joe]

I managed to get in a mini solder session this morning and have a couple questions about conforming the filter pump back-up to FPPB-Mk2.

D5, D6 & D7 are 1N5822 from the earlier FPPB version. I left them as is, is that OK?

R5 needs to be 1K5. There is currently 1K8 installed at R5. I checked resistance between shiny solder joints of R5 and got a reading of 1.47K ohms, even though a 1K8 is installed. ?? (I took a very good look. the 1K8 has a grey/blue stripe while the 1K5 has a bright green stripe) I checked a new 1K8 from the same batch and got 1.78K ohms.

My DMM tells me that I have the value needed at R5. Should I leave it alone or install a new 1K5?

 

[alec_t]

D5, D6 & D7 are 1N5822 from the earlier FPPB version. I left them as is, is that OK?

Yes.

There is currently 1K8 installed at R5.

That should be ok. The lower reading is because there is other circuit resistence effectively in parallel with it. No need to replace it unless the LED operation (D10) isn't as expected. With mains power 'on' the LED should be 'off'.

 

[salty joe]

I hooked up the battery backup system and it worked from the getgo, including the filter pump delay timer. The LED, (D10) is on solid, and only when in battery backup mode.

The trip test works in both PDMs, but the LED in the alarm module did not light up. I assume this is because there was no 12V hooked up.

My DMM showed 11.25V at the '12.6V' terminal point with the power supplies plugged in and 10.92V on battery backup (PSs unplugged)

Not the best pic, I wanted to show off the pump leds . Just seemed like a pic was in order.

The next pic will be the entire system and I'll try to make it neat and tidy. This is truly an amazing system, I can't thank you guys enough.

 

[4pyros]

Wow that's a lot of stuff!!!!
You have come a long way!

 

[alec_t]

The trip test works in both PDMs, but the LED in the alarm module did not light up. I assume this is because there was no 12V hooked up.

Do you mean there was no 12V supply to the two filter PDMs?....or to what?

My DMM showed 11.25V at the '12.6V' terminal point with the power supplies plugged in and 10.92V on battery backup (PSs unplugged)

Sounds like the battery was flat.

 

[salty joe]

The filter PDMs share a common terminal point for 12.6V and it was hooked up.
What I meant is, only the filter pump 12.6V system was hooked up. The alarm module is the only 12V part that gets connected to the 12.6V filter pump system.

Thanks Pyros, it's all the other guys. Glad you had a look!